Derbonic

No. That would be Atheists. We are agnostic. Ask yourself: Why do I ritually state it as fact? What is wrong with stating faith as faith? For what purpose?

Paul

Ok i'll give you that. That is more of an atheistic view. But I think we state things as fact unconciouslly (not sure I spelled that right). I believe my faith is truth so strongly that it may come off like I think I know everything. In reality, I may one day die and be completely wrong about everything, but I don't belive so at the moment. I think we make those kinds of statements without thinking about it because our personal convictions are so strong, and this is not just Christians, it is everyone in general. There is nothing wrong with stating your faith as simply faith. I would like to think that I can back up what I believe (not all of it cause there is just too much I have not studied yet) and show that it makes sense and is logical.

romansh

Hi Paul
I don't really have a problem with Christians, especially the ones that go to church on Sundays, support the community, in general try to make it a better world and lead by example....much as Jesus did. I have think about what bugs me about Christianity.....

As a whole it (at least the US version) does not follow what's written in BIG LETTERS
For example love thy neighbour and enemy?...plus the ten commandments.

How on earth can the the Christian right vote in a president that goes to war and supports the NRA? Which part of Jesus's teachings did I miss?

Have you written to your senator/president regarding the violent culture in the USA? Every journey begins with the first step!

See if you (Christianity) can get the stuff written in capitals right and then we can discuss the fine print.

all the best

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Derbonic

OK. So you believe so strongly that it is the truth that you refer to it audibly as such. When children hear you state out loud these faiths in the form of facts and truths , how are they to interpret them? When you tell them you know that Jesus walked on water , and that the only way to live a happy and productive life or have a happy ever after is though Jesus or the scripture or whatever... How are the children saposed to interpret that? It does not stop there. All church programs I have whitnessed or watched or heard of not only speak with truthyness but ask that both adults and children alike repeat these dogmatic phrases ritualisticly.

Is it the thought of the "powers that be" that without stating there faiths as truths the message will not be recieved? Or is it just a silly mistake that should be overlooked?

Paul

That is a good point. We should love our enemies. As far as wrinting senetor's and presidents about the violent culture we live in, I don't see that as a plausible solution. I think that in order to change a culture, you must start in your own home. Change cannot happen overnight. It take years and years. We have to teach our children what is right and wrong and that life is precious. Thanks for the input.

Paul

Well, I think that when children are involved then the parents should be the ones in charge of what they hear and how they interpret it. My parents taught me my principles and when I was old enough, taught me to think for myself. If a parent is taking his or her children to a church, then I think it is logical that they agree with at least most if not all of what is being taught. I person does not agree with what is being taught, then they should not attend and should not take their children. Alot of people say that truth is relative to each person, yet they get mad because we (Christians) are not teaching the truth that they believe. Please don't think I'm saying this about you. I don't know anything about your beliefs, I'm just making a general statement.

But that is what is great about this country. We do have freedom of religion. We can believe whatever we want without having to worry about persecution. We can disagree without having to be nasty because we all have the same freedoms. It's not that we think our message won't get across if it is not stated as truth. We state it as truth because we believe it is truth. We are not going to water it down because some do not agree. No one else waters down what they believe so it is not fair to expect us to. I'm not sure what kind of services you have witnessed because they seem rather odd. It does not sound like any church I have been involved in. Granted, some churches are horrible. They are mean, unwelcoming, and I would not step foot in them, but please do not lay that kind of behavior at the feet of Christ, because it is far from the principles that he taught.

I tried to delete some of the old quotes so it would not be so long. I hope it did not mess anything up.

Derbonic

hrmmm. Not sure how to put this in language that you will understand and not sound rude.

Are you sure of this?

Is refering to faith as faith "watering it down?"

1. I was speaking of all faiths/beliefs that are written and spoken as truth.
2. Science is not a faith. Its not a beliefe. Its a METHOD. Just so you know , we call it "science" because we dont want to say " the scientific method" every time the term is evoked.

BUT you dont KNOW that its truth , therefor you are being dishonest to portray it as such to others.

duck

Well done, Derbonic. I could not possible have hit the nail on the head better than that.

Presenting faith as truth is aggravating and is the very reason that I have so little patience with christians.

Then, to equalize the issue, science is called a belief and a false religion when it is nothing of the sort.

__________________
Religion: The ultimate definition of verisimilitude

Paul

Ok I still can'f figure out how to multi quote and break it up like that but I'll start at the top and go down.

Am I sure? Yes. I know that I cannot make someone change their mind about their beliefs. It is not my job to change their mind. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. If the spirit is not working in your life or whoever it is that I am talking to, then nothing is ever going to change. Nothing I say or do will have any impact whatsoever in that person's life spiritually. Just like in these forums. I know that i'm not going to make anyone change their mind about what they believe. I don't expect to because no one here really knows me. Even if they did, it probably would not make a difference. But purpose is to tell others about my relationship with Christ. I tell them what he's done in my life and then they can decide for themselves. Christ commanded us to go and tell so that is what I do, plain and simple. We don't have to mean about it, we don't have to argue, if a person does not want to hear it they can turn around and walk away and I would not have my feelings hurt in any way....whew sorry for the rant. Moving on.

Next...Maybe it is not watering it down by calling it faith. I do, however, think that some people (and not necessarily you b/c I don't know. I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking you or putting words in your mouth) would want me to change the terms I use or the way I present it because they are not comfortable with it. Maybe it does not seem like watering it down to you, but to me it is much more than faith, and when it comes to my family and my children, I don't think it is anyone else's buisiness as long as they are not in danger.

Thank you for putting us all on the same playing field. I do not have any problem with science and I do not see it as a faith or religion at all.

No I'm not 100% sure it is truth. I've stated before that I could die one day and end up totally and completely wrong, but to me, what I believe in makes much more sense than any other views out there that I know of. It gives me hope and puts meaning in my life. It makes me happy and makes me feel whole.

Think about this. First, when I say "you" it is in an editorial sence so please do not be offended, and if I misrepresent something I apologize. I am still learning about the agnostic view. You (agnostics) say that you are open to the idea of God but you don't know yet and/or that you can never know. I (christians) claim that I know God exists and he has changed my life. So let me pose this question with the assumption that we can never know for sure if God exists until we die. Are you (again general) going spend your whole life assuming that God does not exist, or would it not be better to assume that God does exist and try to live the way he wants you to? Here is my reasoning. I believe in God and you do not. If you are right and I am wrong, then nothing matters. If I am wrong and death is the end of all then at the end of my life I have lost nothing b/c I had nothing to lose. But, if I am right and God does exist and salvation is needed to live in eternity with him, then I have gained everything and you have lost everything. It would be the biggest mistake a person could make. Even if one cannot know for sure that God is there, doesn't it make more sense to play it safe and have "faith" that he does exist and does care. Even if he does exist and does not care and we are all doomed anyways, what gives your life meaning? What gives it a purpose? If God is the horrible being that some think he is, then what does it matter? He is just going to destroy us in the end anyways, right? Either way, at least I am happy and have hope and meaning in my life. Isn't that what we are after?

duck

Paul, you continually surprise me. You are the most pragmatic evangelical that I have ever happened across. Kudos to you!

Your question is a fair one, and I will try my best to answer it for my part. I am a stubborn human. I want to live my life as I want. I want to believe in possibilities on my terms. I wish to choose heaven and hell, life and death, good and evil, on terms that I set. I accept the terms for life from no other.

This is why I am irritated by those who wish to witness me.

This is why I am impatient with most church groups that interpret spiritual matters in their own way, or follow the interpretation of men who claimed to have known Christ, who has been gone from the earth (in death, most likely) for a neighborhood guess of 2,000 years.

I also am pragmatic enough to want proof in the form of tangible, scientific, empirical proof to the question of the existence of a god and the deification of Christ.

This is why I get cranky with those offering testimonials.

This is why I am impatient and rude to those who seek to "save" my soul whether I want it or not.

And finally, I am indifferent enough to not really care anymore.

Once again, I admire the level of pragmatism you bring. Your debates are very enjoyable and down to earth with common sense.

__________________
Religion: The ultimate definition of verisimilitude