SithLord

Does anyone else beside me find it extremely ironic that Christians loathe islam because of the Jihad (understandably) but the Christians themselves were responsible for the greatest holy wars in the history of man?

Crusades anyone?

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"Relax, I'm here to offend you" - SithLord

sisterX

Silth Lord Great thread, I think one must understand what Jihad actually mean and trust me it does not just mean Holy War. Here is something from wikipedia just to give a broad defenition of the term jihad:

'Jihad literally means to "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society". It is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam, although it occupies no official status as such. Within Islamic jurisprudence, jihad is usually taken to mean military exertion against non-Muslim combatants. In broader usage and interpretation, the term has accrued both violent and non-violent meanings. It can imply striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam, and fighting injustice and oppression, among other things. In the languages of non-islamic cultures, the term is usually used to refer to Muslim 'Holy War' or any violent strife invoking Allah.

The primary aim of jihad is not the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam by force, but rather the expansion and defense of the Islamic state. In the classical manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, the rules associated with armed warfare are covered at great length. Such rules include not killing women, children and non-combatants, as well as not damaging cultivated or residential areas. More recently, modern Muslims have tried to re-interpret the Islamic sources, stressing that Jihad is essentially defensive warfare aimed at protecting Muslims and Islam. Although some Islamic scholars have differered on the implementation of Jihad, there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression. Some Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad regarded the inner struggle for faith a greater Jihad than even fighting [by force] in the way of God.'

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"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Armel P

That was a surprise.


From what I have been told, what is also implied in the context of Jihad is that Christians and Jews are "Muslim" in that they have surrendered to God which ultimately means that Jihad waged on them makes no sense and goes against the Koran. Also, I've been told that the concept of warring against "non-Muslims" was more aimed at Arabs not willing to convert to Islam since the underlying purpose of the religion was to unite the Arabs.

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Aspiring Memetic Engineer

sisterX

Armel P Wrong wrong wrong.
The early jews and christians were seen as "Ahlul Kitaab" /"The people of the Book" this is because they were monotheistic religionsand had scriptures revealed to them like the Torah, Spalms, Gospels, Bible.., they did not worship idol stones and statues. However they were not considered Muslims. TI dont know that much about Judaism but I know that the majority of christians today would not be considered to be monotheistic since they worship Jesus and in some cases his Mother Mary too, hence they have associated partners with God. The Muslims did fight against Jews and Christians in Jihad. Like the battles for Jerusalem.
The purpose of Islam was not to unite Arabs but to unite the whole of mankind. And teach them the oneness of God. Arabs have no special place in Islam they are human beings just like everyone else. And in the first century after the revelation of the Quran and the death of Muhamed, Islam had spread far beyond the Arabian peninsula.
But lets talk about the historical differences between Christian Holy wars and Jihad. I think that is what silthlord wanted to discuss.

By the way why was my initial comment such a surprise to you?

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

niranjan

Yeah,and also the offensive warfare against Europe by the islamic terrorists, which lasted for centuries , till they were thrashed by equal ruthlessness and viciousness by the europeans.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

sisterX

Oh you have a lot to learn!

Many non-Muslims, when they think about Islam, picture religious fanatics on camels with a sword in one hand and a Qur'an in the other. This myth, which was made popular in Europe during the Crusades, is totally baseless. First of all, the Holy Qur'an clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion".

In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person's faith must be pure and sincere, so it is certainly not something that can be forced on someone. In debunking the myth that Islam was "spread by the sword", the (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O' Leary wrote: "History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8.).

It should also be known that Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations.

If Islam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islamic Empire?

Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realize that they were far too few to force people to be members of a religion against their will.

Furthermore, the great empire and civilization established by the Muslims had great staying power -- its citizens were proud to be part of it. The spread of Islam stands in contrast to the actions of the followers of Christianity, who since the time of the Emperor Constantine have made liberal use of the sword, often basing their conduct on Biblical verses.

This was especially true of the colonization of South America and Africa, where native peoples were systematically wiped-out or forced to convert. It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it.

This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered! Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims! Ask any of the over 1.8 billion Muslims alive in the world today whether they were forced! The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia and there were never any battles fought there!

So where was the sword? How could someone be forced to adhere to a spiritually rewarding and demanding religion like Islam?

Your claims are baseless, only based on misconceptions. MAYBE IF YOU READ THE HISTORY BOOKS YOU WOULD REALISE THIS.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

sisterX

Read this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

niranjan

You too, sister babe.

Well, they were in horses when they were in Asia, and they did not at all follow what you have stated above, but were committed to slaughter , and forcible conversion of many to Islam.








And this so-called historian is a stupid fool. Why on earth did Zoroastrianism ,which was flourishing in persia ,was destroyed by the arab muslims,who invaded Persia (Iran ).

Many zoroastrians fled to India, where they were given refuge and full freedom of worship by the Hindus, and as a result the zoroastrian culture, religion and heritage was not lost to the world. There still exists a substantial zoroastrian population in India.






And who on earth told them to invade other lands and nations and slaughter their people. Is this the peace that Islam is talking about!!!


And I know very well, that christians and hindus are persecuted in Pakistan, and buddhists are persecuted in Bangladesh, and that the bahais are persecuted in Iran and Egypt, and that christians and hindus are persecuted in Malaysia, and that buddhists are persecuted by the muslims in Thailand.....








By paying the jizya tax for being non-muslims, and being submissive, what else!!!








Well, and these few peope were armed terrorists who invaded these lands and forced them to embrace Islam. When you are armed to the teeth, a minority becomes a majority.












And I know what the mongols have done to Iraq and many muslim countries as well.


I don't think it is unique. Many greeks, huns, scythians, who had invaded parts of India, had accepted both Hinduism and buddhism.

Many mongols adopted Buddhism as well. The principal faith of Mongolia is buddhism.












What a joke! You clearly are brainwashed, and wants to believe what you want to believe .

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

niranjan

What a joke, this link itself shows nothing but wars and invasions and slaughter and bloodshed.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

sisterX

Where is your historical proof for this, unless you were an eyewitness to these I'm going to need documented evidence.

When the Abu bakr khalifate came to persia to spread Islam they recieved violent opposition from the sassanian empire. However with the will of God the muslims were the victors. The Muslims gave Iranians three options: to accept Islam and rank equally with Muslims, to pay the poll tax and enjoy security and freedom of religion, or continue the military confrontation.
The Iranians had submitted to the military supremacy of Muslims without any intention to surrender their faith. Hence the defeated Zoroastrians normally opted for paying poll tax (jizyah) and land tax (Kharadj), in exchange for retaining their creed, and enjoying security.
After this most zoroastrians converted to Islam after learning of the prphecies in their scriptures about the prophet Muhammed. Those who did not accept any of the three choices fled.
The Mongols were the invaders not the invaded, doesn't the fact that they took the religion of those whom they invaded tell you anything about the beauty of Islam?

The fact that you opinions are biased and you use words like 'Islamic terrorism' shows that you, my friend, are the one who has been brainwashed
Your hatred and intolerance is very apparent.

You make baseless claims and you know very little history.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran