Armel P

Og: "It's fairly well understood and mapped out." Eh. It's tough to say that because it's still only at the hypothesis stage.

__________________
Aspiring Memetic Engineer

lauraclay

Maximus, you should check out ancient Ameri-Indian views of time. You might find some things you agree with.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Og

This doesn't make sense.. How is the existence of dark matter tied to the existence of everything else other than that it all exists and effects one another?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

sisterX

OG you say that we are souless bodies because we consist of such complex systems. What if we did have free will and had real feelings, souls etc, would and should our physical make-up be any different?
You try to use science to prove your own opinions, science takes a neutral stand in the argument of whether or not there is a concious ceator, science is just the observation of the natural world it does not and will never refute the existance of a supernatural world!

sisterX

I if you look at human beings they have a natural tendency to assume the the universe and 'life' are all the result of concious design.
Our experience, exposure, and perception are inherently limited, but this does not prevent us from trusting our faculty of reason, whether we are deciding to cross a street without getting hit by a vehicle or are inquiring into the beginning of the universe in real time. We can either accuse our faculty of reason of deceiving us (interestingly, ONLY when the possibility of the existence of a creator of the universe is being scrutinized—I wonder, why?) or trust rationality and allow it to lead us to a sound conclusion, which is that God exists.

lauraclay

Science often delves into the realm of the supernatural. Life after death, telekinesis, many things to do with the mind, all sometimes end up dealing with the supernatural.

People don't only question their reasoning when dealing with the existence of a creator. Maybe you do, but I question myself all the time.

And there are sound conclusions other than God exists. You can make arguments for both sides, so don't act like because we don't believe in your God we're dumb and don't make sound conclusions.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

sisterX

Laura I wasnt suggesting for one minute that you or an other agnostic is 'dumb', i dont encourage blind faith just that we think logically about the possibility of a Concious Creator.
Science sometimes deals with the supernatural? Does that mean the supernatural world exists? Og would say "no way"! You may have have a different view Lauraclay which is cool.

Og

One man's magic is another man's engineering. Supernatural is a null word.
-Robert Heinlein

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

lauraclay

So, I was googling this, and I came across this website kind of chronicling science and the supernatural. It talks a lot about creationism, and it's really interesting. I know that posting links is pretty much useless, since people rarely check them out, so I'll just put some of the more interesting bullets here. But if you want to check it out:
www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Super.pdf

National Academy of Sciences:Science is a way of knowing about the natural world. It is limited to explaining the natural world through natural causes. Science can say nothing about the supernatural. Whether God exists or not is a question about which science is neutral.

Overton’s Definition of Science
•it is guided by natural law;
•it has to be explained by reference to natural law;
•it is testable against the empirical world;
•its conclusions are tentative, that is, are not necessarily the final word;
•it is falsifiable.

Problems with Courts’ Criteria for defining science
Want criteria that are both necessary and sufficient.
•Not sufficient. Astrology is falsifiable and not science. Basket-weaving deals with natural objects. Plumbing involves Bernoulli’s principle.
•Not necessary. Nothing prevents science from considering non-natural causes. Scientists will go wherever the data lead.
•Plays into hands of those who claim science is dogmatically committed to a totally materialistic view of reality.

“In our greatest universities, naturalism––the doctrine that nature is "all there is"––is the virtually unquestioned assumption that underlies not only natural science but intellectual work of all kinds.”–Phillip Johnson

Methodological naturalism v.Ontological Naturalism,
See Robert Pennock, Tower of Babel. ON: Only natural processes and events exist.
Metaphysics.MN: Assume only natural processes andevents exist for purpose of inquiry. Physics.
Eugenie Scott (National Center for Science Education):“Scientists use only methodological materialism [naturalism] because it is logical, but primarily because it works. We don't need to use supernatural forces to explain nature, and we get farther in our understanding of nature by relying on natural causes.” OK so far, but it may not always be so. “Properly understood, the principle of methodological materialism [naturalism] requires neutrality towards God; we cannot say, wearing our scientist hats, whether God does or does not act.”I disagree. MN can be used to investigate God.

Philosopher/Theologian Alvin Plantinga:“if you exclude the supernatural from science, then if the world or some phenomena within it are supernaturally caused — as most of the world’s people believe — you won’t be able to reach that truth scientifically.” “Observing methodological naturalism thus hamstrings science by precluding science from reaching what would be an enormously important truth about the world. It might be that, just as a result of this constraint, even the best science in the long run will wind up with false conclusions.”

Applying Methodological Naturalism to Religion
•Take empirical data in normal scientific way.
•If no natural explanation is even remotely plausible, then we may entertain possibility of a supernatural process. Impossible? No.

For Example– Intercessory Prayer
Suppose independent experiments showed conclusively that Catholic prayers heal the sick, while Jewish, Protestant,Muslim prayers have no effect. What plausible explanation?

Experiments on distant intercessory prayer
While many published prayer experiments are poorly done and unconvincing,a few are “good science”–double-blind,etc.
•Mayo Clinic (2001)
•Duke University (2005)
•Harvard , Mayo,.. (2006) New results!
No significant effects seen.

Other investigations bearing on supernatural
•Parapsychology (ESP, etc.)
•Near-Death Experiences
•Out-of-Body Experiences
•Visions, miracles, revelations
•Shroud of Turin, James Ossuary
•Weeping statues
All observations have plausible natural explanations . . .But, they need not have had them.

All in all, I just pulled some stuff to show that science can deal with the supernatural. However, the rest of the site is really interesting.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

The An-Jel

Og that is an AWESOME av!

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment