Og

A rainbow is an illusion. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Illusion means that it's something other than it appears to be. Fear and desire are part of the notion of free will. The idea that you can choose to seek one thing or choose to be repelled from another.

The reality is that they are not this. Fear and desire are physiological responses to certain situations. "You" as a distinct individual is a bit like seeing a face on the moon or a rabbit in the clouds.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Sa\/en

I acknowledge the fact that free will doesn't exist, but in this deterministic universe we "experience" fear and desire. I agree that it is an illusion to assume that we possess free will, but fear and desire are real, with free will or without. Maybe I don't really understand what you mean...

Og

First off, the universe is indeterminant (quantum illustrates this).

Let me clarify. Fear and desire are brain states, yes. But they are in the context of free will when "experienced".. How could you desire or fear anything if you didn't feel like you had control? Without a self or without will, desire and fear have no meaning. It's like saying the moon desires to orbit the earth and fears escaping into a trajectory that sends it away from the earth.

To me, they illustrate the nature of the human condition, and as buddhists illustrate, are the sources of suffering.

Fear and desire and good and evil are part of the illusion of free will. That's all I mean. I'm not saying that they don't exist. I'm saying that from our perspective, however, we give the concepts value because we believe that we have the ability to choose.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Sa\/en

I think I understand.

Og

The feelings are real, but they are within the context of an individual self with free will. You can't fear something that you are identical with. This would be like a file on a computer "fearing" being "deleted" which is an utterly silly thing. The reality is that there is no file. There is a disk with a pattern of magnetic fields. Deleting a file does not, in any way, destroy anything. It re-arranges magnetic fields. There is no file there on the computer as some real physical entity.

In the same way, there is no self for humans as real physical entities.

You can experience fear and desire (obviously, everyone does). This doesn't mean that they're real concepts. They're derivative from an illusion of will.

It's neat that science gives people everything they seek in religion (if you look correctly). It illustrates our identity with all things. It provides eternal life in that who and what we are is, was, and always shall be. It provides a moral code relative to a desire to survive and thrive. And it connects us closer to the nature of being than any other endeavor in the history of humanity.

Fear and desire are the buddhist equivalent of good and evil (in the western eden story). There's even an identical creation myth in the hindu culture where "AHAM" (which means I) is the first consciousness compared to "ADAM" (which means man) in the garden of eden. They are both derivative from a bronze age myth around 900bc.

What I think is so great about modern neuroscience is that it gives us a way of wrapping our minds around the notion that good and evil really are illusions. It allows us to discard the concepts in exchange for rationality. And you know what it was that kicked us out of the garden right? The knowledge of good and evil!

So science now plays the role that christ/buddha was designed for. Conquering original sin and returning us to the garden of eden.

And people call it a godless field? Heh.. They just don't realize that science literally makes us all into god.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

I'll add that in the story from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (sacred text), the story of Aham shows the activation of consciousness and it begins with fear and desire.

Aham (I) arises and experiences fear. Aham then realizes that he's the only thing, so there is nothing to fear. Then he immediately senses desire for a companion and creates woman out of himself and joins with her. She then thinks it's odd that he joins with himself in her and so she turns into a cow and Aham chases her and turns into a bull.. Then into all the animals down to the ants. Thus Aham arises, senses fear/desire and is cast into the field of time.

In Genesis (of course):

The creator is not the creation (this is the fundamental distinction between east/west). The creation names the creatures of the world and then, when joined with eve (of his own flesh) experiences good and evil and realizes distinctions of male and female and is then cast into the field of time.

So good/evil and fear/desire are identical concepts between the cultures. They're motive forces that we associate with the illusion of the individual self.

The reality is that we are all one process. You and I are no different than each of your individual lungs or each of the cells withing those lungs or each of the organelles (nucleus and mitochondria for example) within your cells or each of the proteins/nucleic acids within the organelles or each of the molecules within the proteins.

Instead of being linked by vessels and tubes (as in the case of our organs), you and I are, right now, linked by the internet. When in the physical presence of other human beings, we are linked by air and vibrations we generate (sound) and by chemical queues that we release (pheromones).

You, I, no distinction.

This is the essence of the Sanskrit "Tat Tvam Asi" from my signature. Thou art that.. That is anything.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

jaej

Isn't the indeterminance of the universe sort of an arguement for choice? Or maybe I misunderstand what you said..

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Og

No, it's not an argument for choice. Indeterminacy is an understood quantum effect. We are effectively computers with complex programs. Cells deal with mass action which is the bulk effect of a large number of particles. Indeterminant quantum effects are utterly random.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

jaej

Oh. I guess I was under the impression everything was deterministic.

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Pooonu

o man og... thats some good stuff man.. thank you.. very wise

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I'd rather be hated for who i am, then be loved by who i am not - Kurt Cobain

As the hemispheres of the brain struggle for dominance there is a constant shifting of polarity between the right and left lobes that exists as music vs. number, image vs. word, being vs. doing, and holistic integration vs. linear abstraction.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...LIzIngAw&hl=en