Vencedor

Im agnostic and i was discussing hell with my gf (who is christian). Somehow we became incredibly confused by it, i'll try to explain our issue. According to the Bible the following is true.

we go to hell for eternity
we suffer in hell for eternity
this suffering is a punishment

now i brought in my understanding of what a punishment is

we are punished for doing something wrong
we are punished so that we will learn from our mistake
we learn from our mistake so we know not to make it again

now these two work together for a while. perhaps the people in hell will eventually learn they were wrong about God (i think they'd realise quite quickly) and then they will have learnt from their punishment. but normally after this the right course of action would be to stop punishing them, and they're in hell for eternity so it doesn't stop. They arn't even given a chance to make the same mistake so whats the point in even teaching them not to? My question is this, what is the real point of the eternal suffering in hell? If it is punishment, then please explain y my definition has got me so confused. If not, then there must be some other explanation for it.

(I've asked around 10 people, atheists, agnostics and christians this question and none of them have given me an answer)

Og

The confusion comes from taking the image as a literal place when you're trying to understand it. Humans don't normally think past the noses on their faces (to quote mary poppins).

Hell is extremely effective at creating a stable society NOW versus having people learn from mistakes in the future. It's the ultimate deterrent to bad behavior in irrational individuals who's sense of self preservation only involves themselves and not those around them as well.

I do not advocate disregarding it as a sociological tool, but it only works if you are dominated by fear/desire and not rationality (the ability to think past your own nose). So having a discussion like this indicates that you no longer need be bound by the notion of hell. For some people it is VERY real, and it plays an important role. Be good in short time now = reward forever when dead. Choice seems simple.

The analysis of Heaven and Hell shouldn't be thought of as temporal things in the future, but as current states of mind.

There's an old chinese proverb where all of the people in the world are eating at a table. The ones in hell have chopsticks that are too long to get the food from the plate to the mouth (they can't bend it such that it gets back to their mouth). In heaven, you find that people are sitting at the same table and in the same predicament but they feed the person across from them.

There's also the quote from the recently uncovered gospel according to thomas (i paraphrase):

Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven will not come to the earth with people shouting 'it is there or here.' The kingdom of heaven is, now, laid out upon the earth and men do not see it."

This is the power of religious imagery. Don't cast interpretation of symbols into somewhere outside of you at some other time. Interpret them in terms of what is inside you here and now. We express ourselves in myths. The constellations get named after hunters and majestic animals because these are what were important to the minds of the people of the time.

Gods and heaven and hell are an expression of the human psyche. That's the disconnect you're having with your girlfriend. When the idea is read as if it's a newspaper report, it doesn't make sense. When it's read as poetry it becomes illuminating.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

Og

Effectively, what's going on, is that you are a child who's beginning to question the idea of santa claus and trying to catch him in the act of delivering presents

Hopefully you get through this time of questioning and come to realize what the symbol means (in the case of santa, it's the christmas spirit of giving and such). In the case of hell it's that harmony is achievable (amongst other complex ideas). You'll be opened to a realm of understanding of the universe that allows us to map out the cosmos, land a man upon the surface of the moon, manipulate the genome of a variety of creatures, and bring people together like never before with modern telecommunications.

And maybe you'll reduce the pull of fear and desire on the path you take in life and really come to grasp what it means to be aware in this marvelous universe

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

Geshtinnanna

Hell is not a place. It's being removed from God.

__________________

jaej

Exactly. There is a pastor from my church, which is a very conservative church. He believes all this crap like promillenialism instead of the conservative version premillenialism, theistic evolution, ana all this other liberal christian crap. He believes hell is really just earth with no religion. Or something like that.

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

The An-Jel

Simply a threat? Because an a good deity wouldn't do that to people he professes to love would he? It really makes Christianity redundant and ineffectual to a thinking human being.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Vencedor

maybe i should explain my position a bit more. i don't have any belief in the truth of the bible but my gf and i love debating it. over time i've gotten used to talking from the perspective of a literal christian so thats the view im taking on this. it does make sense as a threat, and it makes sense as a symbol but im asking if there can be a way for it to make sense as a literal place where people who didn't believe in God suffer (possibly through the eternal lack of God as some people mentioned)

jaej

No, it doesn't. It only makes sense as a threat, because people need something to fear. Fear drives religion-what better fear than 'You're gonna burn in this fiery pit forever and you have no chance of ever stopping it?'

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

lauraclay

If it made complete sense as a real place, wouldn't everyone believe it?

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Vencedor

not necessarily, hell is just a part of christianity and something can make sense without being real. so it seems like most people agree with me that hell as a literal place cannot make sense