Why Hell? - Page 12

lauraclay · 05-16-2007, 10:07 PM

That isn't what I said.

jaej · 05-16-2007, 10:11 PM

It actually is. Double negative. And anyway, regardless of what I think or don't think about teenage intellect, I stand by what I said before. I would take the word of someone with a phd over a teenager anytime. Can anyone honestly say they wouldn't?

Vencedor · 05-17-2007, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapstiquelova

Hell isnt positive, nothing about hell, evil, sin, or satan is positive.
We wouldnt have even had hell if it werent for lucifer (now known as satan).But I do believe in Heaven and hell.

Ok but i always assumed that if the christian God is real then things can only exist because he allows (or even intended) them to exist. So if nothing about hell, evil, sin or satan is positive then why does God allow those things to exist? More specifically hell and satan, because God definately created hell and he lets Satan exist.

Chapstiquelova · 05-17-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaej

Labels, labels, labels

So, since I'm a teenager, I neccesarily underestimate the value of the teenage mind? k..

No one said that until , you made a claim that seemed asthough you did.
You have made yourself clear now .........but I still Believe no matter what age, no matter you are in highscholl middle school, college, Phd, whatever you should have equal say and be taken just as serious as everyone else.

Chapstiquelova · 05-17-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vencedor

Ok but i always assumed that if the christian God is real then things can only exist because he allows (or even intended) them to exist. So if nothing about hell, evil, sin or satan is positive then why does God allow those things to exist? More specifically hell and satan, because God definately created hell and he lets Satan exist.

Freedom of choice, Satan made the decision he wanted to be god, and he got a couple of buds to agree,,,,,and yeh...lol....did i help you any?

Og · 05-17-2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Satan made the decision he wanted to be god, and he got a couple of buds to agree,,,,,and yeh...lol....did i help you any?

This is the part about being a teenager (and an adult) where you don't understand metaphors. There are many people of all ages who don't get this and you probably know many of them.

The metaphor is not "johnny runs like a deer." The metaphor is "Johnny is a deer."

Quote:

but I still Believe no matter what age, no matter you are in highscholl middle school, college, Phd, whatever you should have equal say and be taken just as serious as everyone else.

This is a patently absurd claim and you know it. Who would you turn to for medical treatment? The president of the united states or a medical doctor with a history of training and results at a hospital?

Just being able to speak doesn't not give you the right to be taken seriously when you convey a concept.. But this has nothing to do with your age or training. It could be that the president is a skilled physician and the MD I mentioned is a moron. It's not the label that's important, it's the actual content of the message.

The point is the content. Regardless of your age, your content is a mish mash of mixed metaphors and literalist religion. You have a concrete faith. One nice thing about being young is that there's opportunity ahead of you for you to realize this and to open your heart to the mystery of being. You're going to continue to be cast out of the garden. You may or may not realize that the god you talk about so much is the bondage that is keeping you out of the garden.. Out of the kingdom of heaven. You may or may not realize that when you speak of your god, you're expressing elements of your own psyche.

Your god is you looking in a mirror and being afraid.

That is Hell.

Old Chinese proverb says:
In hell, people sit at a table with chopsticks too long to get the food into their mouths so they perpetually starve and are in agony. In heaven, people feed the person across from them.

Piglet · 05-17-2007, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Quantum indeterminacy does not deal in things that can be changed. Quantum indeterminacy is an expression of fixed probability distribution functions. That's why mass action is what it is. All effects in the world are the expression of ensembles of particles with properties defined by the quantum probability functions.

ANYTHING can be changed.
You seem to suffer from a lack of will.

Quote:

The point is that when you flip a billion coins, you get 50:50 with infinitesimal divergence. Biological systems are not driven by quantum indeterminacy. They are large and follow newtonian mechanics and mass action. I have looked at a single DNA polymerase molecule under a laser (using a quantum effect of zero mode waveguides to observe it). The DNA polymerase sat there and incorporated base pairs into DNA. It didn't randomly jump around in some utterly uncorrelated way. This single molecule did what it's structure informs it to do. And in the nucleus, there is a concentration of thousands to millions of these molecules all working in parallel.

But in the BIG picture
Nothing is absolutetly deterined. even if it's a pico second too late.

Quote:

This quantum indeterminacy is a "god of the gaps" approach to being.

Neurons are huge compared to atomic forces. They use concentration gradients of ions and massive vesicles filled with thousands to millions of massive (in reference to quantum wavelengths) neurotransmitters. They use all or nothing cascades (action potentials) that offer what's called "hysteresis" to the cell.

I do not say that the universe is absolutely deterministic. Photons released from the sun are certainly quantum random processes (though the fact that we're continuously illuminated is an expression of mass action). Quantum indeterminacy is symetric in time too (theoretically).

But this is not the point. Biological organisms do not exist on quantum size scales. Quantum mechanics is not some veil over the universe. It's an expression of FIXED probability distribution functions for subatomic particles. We use the reliability of quantum processes for the fundamentals that make computers work (semiconductor bandgaps are due to quantum processes in crystals).

Piglet's 10% is a made up number.

The universe is NOT absolutely determined. But that doesn't mean that we have free will in any way. It has no bearing on the nature of being a biological adaptive feedback control system.

Og

Og

You talk with numbers and theories.
With science that is specualtive and unproven..all is suspect
I speak
For myself
For you
For all that reason exists for.

The observable universe is not a set script.
I do not love because of the determinism of mater and energy in
the universe.
I love because i choose to love. As do you
I reason this because i choose to reason this. As do you

I and all my brother and sister humans have what no other structures have.
Self aware conceptualisation.
Concept of duration, past and future.
Concept of abillity.
Concept of that which you say we are a slave of.

Yes. we know our enemy. It is innaction.
[and it seems, an undying hommage to the god of newtonian mechanics]
Will the ball fall to the floor? yes. But, someone caught it.

Piglet

Piglet · 05-17-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Og

Regardless of your age, your content is a mish mash of mixed metaphors and literalist religion. You have a concrete faith. One nice thing about being young is that there's opportunity ahead of you for you to realize this and to open your heart to the mystery of being. You're going to continue to be cast out of the garden. You may or may not realize that the god you talk about so much is the bondage that is keeping you out of the garden.. Out of the kingdom of heaven. You may or may not realize that when you speak of your god, you're expressing elements of your own psyche.

Your god is you looking in a mirror and being afraid.

Og

Your compassion is breathtaking. [thus you earn this post]
Of course.
YOU know the way to the garden. to 'the kingdom of heaven'.

You may or may not know that when YOU speak, you reveal your psyche.

Dont you know.. there is no kingdom of heaven. poor lost og.. so young and ....'lost'

Piglet .. 'oink'

Og · 05-17-2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

there is no kingdom of heaven.

This is certainly literally true in terms of heaven being a place that is going to come or something... I agree with your assessment. This fact, however, in no way has anything to do with what I was saying.

The kingdom of heaven is a state of mind. The end of the world is a spiritual realization. The promised land is a metaphysical realization. They do not come sometime in the future and do not exist somewhere "out there." People who don't get this do not understand what a metaphor is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel of Thomas 113

His disciples said to Him, "When will the Kingdom come?"
<Jesus said,> "It will not come by waiting for it. It will
not be a matter of saying 'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather,
the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men
do not see it."

When I speak of opening eyes and returning to the garden it is in terms of a metaphorical realization. That it's some concrete concept about a place is nonsense (as you noted).

Quote:

poor lost og.. so young and ....'lost'

I understand your misconception. It appears to me that this realization of metaphor in terms of literal fact is the central problem that religion faces today. I can understand why you'd think of my approach as "lost."

Piglet · 05-17-2007, 01:35 PM

Og

Your proposition that we are parts of the 'direction'
like tornadoes or other deterministic phenomena is false.
And partly true

'WE' are what direction aimed for.
Non deterministc results.

'God' has no interest is deterministic effects.

He wants us to bang on his door and say.
Wake up you old fart. There is no heaven. Theres just us ratgags with FTL drives and reality machines.

THE time has come. God cannot ignor what he was in youth.

Piglet