Sam Harris and Rick Warren Debate

Mick · 04-01-2007, 02:59 PM

This is interesting. Harris is articulate as always. Warren ends with Pascal's wager (!)

News Week: The God Debate
God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rick Warren - Newsweek Beliefs - MSNBC.com

Og · 04-01-2007, 05:16 PM

Thanks for posting this!

Quote:

Originally Posted by warren

If life is just random chance, then nothing really does matter and there is no morality—it's survival of the fittest. If survival of the fittest means me killing you to survive, so be it. For years, atheists have said there is no God, but they want to live like God exists. They want to live like their lives have meaning.

This is one of those tough times where people with no education on a topic should not be given a pulpit (but religion does).

Harris had just finished talking about the golden rule and how it is seen even in ape cultures. Warren has (in his own mind) rationalized the "random" World that he describes evolution as as being a linear and simple world.

Kill you, me survive. But that is no where near ideal. Particularly if you try to implement that "kill you policy" and I have several friends watching my back. It's clearly a more "safe" environment to have recognition of others and their desires and where they fit in the scheme of things. It lets you know how much you can get away with without destabilizing everything and having some group rise up and put you down.

Tit for tat. The golden rule. Balance.

But evolution and survival of the fittest sound so silly when put like warren puts it here. And of course, people who don't appreciate the complexity of the world will think what he says makes a lot of sense.

And thus the current problem of dogmatic religious vs the free thinker.

Og · 04-01-2007, 05:22 PM

I severely dislike these kind of conversations between atheists and religious folk. It just makes me uncomfortable to read them. The atheist is invariably painted as making leaps where he admits a "low probability" that virgin birth happened, for example. The theist is then shown as noble for having faith and for the fact that (in some sense) 96% of the world agrees that there is a higher power.

I wonder. It says that Sam Harris is working on his PhD in neuroscience. I wonder what he's studying and where specifically.

**The An-Jel** · 04-01-2007, 05:30 PM

I listened rather than read. I assume it was the same thing. Even if it wasn't I love that the battle always seems to be this: Religion Vs Atheists. Society is more accepting of Atheists than Agnostics. Maybe it's the fear factor that IF there IS A GOD it isn't the one that the religious read in that little black book. So they accept one or the other. I've heard these same tired arguments before. Sorry I couldn't get to the ape part but I think I got an idea from Og's deal above. Like I said same tired argument.

Mick · 04-01-2007, 05:39 PM

The entire debate wasn't included in the audio .... but you got much of it by listening. I just thought it funny that Warren would close with Pascal's Wager .... believe in God, just in case there is one. Of course the question then becomes .. which one? I'll just wait and see ... or not. I'm living much better without it being my focus.

Og · 04-01-2007, 07:17 PM

Pascal's wager is idiotic.. and another example of the oversimplification. As with most religious folks, pascals wager counts life as worthless. Believing in god without foundation forfeits your life as a free spirit.

Mick · 04-01-2007, 08:31 PM

Og, Yes it is idiotic .... I would think Warren would've avoided that one ... but then, he described evolution as "random" .... not much of an opponent for Harris.

I see from your signature you've studied some Advaita Vedanta.

Og · 04-01-2007, 09:05 PM

I've studied Joseph Campbell. But yeah.. Much of it is derived from vedas and sutras. Hindu imagery is amazing. Their connection to what is real is very cool. I do still prefer the ego construct that the west has added into the mix (I was raised in it). But yeah.. I have a big respect for hinduism and buddhism.

mister_lister · 04-01-2007, 09:45 PM

Sam Harris got sentimental and wishy washy with all his talk about meditation. He was way to politically correct. Kinda like a politician.

Rick Warren is an ass, I read his book "a purpose driven life" and his call to Christian Service, is just another Christian Marketing Ploy - Get the Gospel Out There - nothing of real human compassion about it. I have also been to his church, it is in my old stomping grounds, Orange County. Talk about a totem to the ALMIGHTY DOLLAR. The sound system is the very best, stadium seating. Completely modern and well appointed. I could go on for paragraphs with the problems I have with his church and his religion.

Really I think Harris dropped the ball, he was trying to be too appealing to those who sit on the other side of the argument and Warren picked up on it asking him "is that your politically incorrect answer?".

As an agnositic I think both atheists and theists are equally .... how shall I say this ... ****ed in the head! The both make conclusions about an issue we have absolutely no way of making a conclusion on. About the only thing we can agree on is that "the other guy" is wrong.

Sitting those two assholes down was an exercise in marketing for a glorified tabloid - "NEWS WEAK". Thats all I have to say on the subject. Now carry on the debate.

Og · 04-01-2007, 09:50 PM

Yeah.. I really hate these stuffed shirt atheists. They seem to be founded on nothing unless they have some idiot fundamentalist opposite them at a table.

I prefer philosophy that transcends this paradigm. Like true science. There is only evidence. None of this wishy washy opinion crap. Only evidence. No "sides" to an argument.

This kind of popular atheist crap like harris and dawkins and dennet is a bunch of reactionary post 9/11 anti-bush pussy liberal junk.