lauraclay

Oh, I just assumed you meant the soul.

Geshtinnanna

Ahh. Well my point was that if my mind and body are choosing for me, then I am choosing for me, hence free will. I am my own mind and body. Make sense?

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lauraclay

Oh, so since your neurons are your own neurons, it still is your free choice. That's a good point.

Geshtinnanna

Yay! I made sense!

__________________

Og

What is the "you" that owns the neurons? Where does it exist? How does it influence the behavior of the neurons such that "you" are something separate from the rest of the world?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Geshtinnanna

That question sounds so narcissistic. I would rather focus on other things then trying to explain why I am me.

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}SoC{Sumguy

but why you are you and who you are are two of the most important questions to ask....

__________________
"And now you've seen his face,
and you know that there's a place
in the sun, for all that you've done.
For you and your children.
You always wanted to beleive.
Just ask and you'll receive,
beyond your wildest dreams.
And you already know how this will end...."

Bodhitharta

If what you are saying is correct Og then you must understand that you are only telling these things to us because you must and not because there's any validity to it. In fact according to you I am writing this because I have to and not because I want to, initially when I was spelling "writing" I started to spell it "righting" but I changed it which according to you I had to change it. The fact is and I'll say it once again Free Will is the determination of the individual in the context of the situation.

Why would Og even attempt to change someones opinion if he is so certain that in reality that have no free will to accept what he is saying as we will only do according to Og what our "neurons" make us do.

No need to apoligize for wrong doings or try to change your life or situation anyone Og says you will only do whatever you will do good or bad , right or wrong. If you hurt someone you had to do it. Og, this is a terribly misleading thing to convey to people especially since its not true. BTW, those who believe in brahman are told that they should behave a certain way and devote themselves to God which according to you is not really possible to do freely.

Og

I realize that you want to have true and ultimate free will bod.

But you tell me. Where is there room amongst the mass of 100 billion neurons and supporting cells for some sort of "free will" to exist that is something separate from the behavior of the system that is the human brain?

I'm not asking this because I think you know a lot about the nervous system. I'm asking this because this is what I have come up against. I do not hold this stance because of some sort of faith thing. I hold this stance because this is what evidence illustrates.

The appearance of free will is there as an illusion. You can't discard it without discarding yourself. It's not intuitive that the brain is a deterministic machine, but we are made of components that must follow the deterministic laws of nature. Our brain tissue is stimulated by external things and our behavior adapts to those stimuli.

It's a wild realization, but it's also a demonstrable realization.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

Yes, this is characterized well. Your behavior is complex, not free from causality. Free will is definitely an illusion because of the nature of the human brain and our situation as entities in the universe.

This precludes the idea that consciousness is something separate from the physical material of the universe. It's a behavior of a system in the universe in much the same way that a wolf "runs" the human brain has "consciousness." This is why I bring it up. Whether it FEELS like you have free will or not is irrelevant. Observation illustrates that you do not and that, therefore, your thesis on a prime consciousness doesn't really track.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are