niranjan

Enlightenment is possible also through bhakti yoga ( the yoga of love).


The Buddhas approach was basically jnana yoga ( yoga of the intellect ), and raja yoga and meditation.

All yogas, raja yoga, karma yoga, jnana yoga,bhakti yoga lead to the same path and goal, which is enlightenment.




I believe that salvation and enlightenment is one and the same thing.
~~

And where are his 'routines ' given!!!




Siddhartha was not at all interested in being superior or inferior to the Brahmins. He was more interested in finding out the cause of suffering and the purpose of life.




Varna is a Sanskrit term and has two meanings; first it means "color"; and second it means a "veil". As color it does not refer to the color of the skin of people, but to the qualities or energies of human nature. As a veil it shows the four different ways in which the Divine Self is hidden in human beings.

According to hinduism every aspect or being of nature is made up of three elements or gunas in varying amounts, sattva , rajas and tamas.


The four castes had colours attributed to them. White for the brahmin caste,red for the kshatriya caste, yellow for the vaishya caste, and black for the shudra caste.

The brahmin caste is predominantly sattvic, the kshatriya caste is made up of sattva and rajas, the vaishya caste is made up of rajas and tamas, and the shudra caste is made up of tamas mainly. It is in this order that the colours are determinded and it is not with respect to skin colour.

As you can see from the hindu scriptures, all the hindu gods, except Shiva, is black-skinned.

Vishnu, Rama and Krishna , who were worshipped by the ancient hindus and now as well, are stated in all the hindu scriptures to be black-skinned.

The mahabharatha and srimadbhagavatam, Krishna's biography, points out his beautiful black skin colour again and again.

Krishna's beautiful features , his lotus eyes, his smile and his beautiful black skin, 'the colour of dark thunderclouds'( according to the scriptures ) is mentioned again and again.

Arjuna, Damayanti, Vyasa, Draupadi,and other heroes and heroines are also described with dark skin in the hindu scriptures.

In the Bhagavad Gita you can clearly see the blackskinned Krishna conversing with the darkskinned arjuna.

So you can see from this clearly that varna means the qualities or energies of human nature and not at all skin colour.


I have no idea where u are getting all this information.

Buddha was not at all interested in theism in the first place, whether polytheism, or monotheism or monism.

He was more interested in making people walk the path of moksha or nirvana or enlightenment.

Also Hinduism is basically monistic or monotheistic, and it worships and reveres the supreme impersonal God Brahman.


The Mundaka Upanishad says:
Om. That supreme Brahman is infinite, and this conditioned Brahman is infinite. The infinite proceeds from infinite. Then through knowledge, realizing the infinitude of the infinite, it remains as infinite alone.



This Supreme Cosmic Spirit or Absolute Reality called Brahman is said to be eternal, genderless, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and ultimately indescribable in the human language. It can be at best described as infinite Being, infinite Consciousness and infinite Bliss. Brahman is regarded as the source and essence of the material universe. It is pure being. Brahman manifests as Hiranyagarbha, the "world soul", which also can take many forms or manifestations of the thousands of gods. It was deemed a singular substrate from which all that is arises, and debuts with this verse:

"Great indeed are the devas(gods) who have sprung out of Brahman."

---Atharva Veda




The goal of Hinduism as well is Nirvana or Moksha or liberation from the cycle of birth or rebirth.

However Hinduism at the time of Buddha was focussed more on rituals and sacrifices, lacking the necessary focus on nirvana or moksha.

Buddha eleminated all the rituals and sacrifices from his variant of hinduism, and made it strictly non-theistic.

Swami Vivekananda had stated Buddhism to be the logical fulfilment of Hinduism.





What nonsense. The concept of monism is present in the Vedas and Upanishads milleniums before Shankaracharya was born .

Shankaracharya mainly consolidated the teaching of Advaita Vedanta, in which he underlines the unity of the soul and Brahman.





Both monism and monotheism are a part of the Vedas and the Upanishads, which were created milleniums before Jesus was born.

The Bhagavad Gita too, which was written milleniums before Jesus,was also basically monistic and monotheistic.

Buddha physical body died and he attained parinirvana. What is so unbelievable about this!!!!!

The impermanence of all compounded things is a primary teaching of the Buddha.

The Buddha's last words were thus," "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence."

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

AB517

The beauty of Jesus is that he was great teacher. He knew that to change a society radically would not work so he used parts of the past to help them grow into the future. Much as life on Earth has evolved.

An American Indian chief once said something like

I follow the way of the wolf.
You follow the way of the book.
One God.
Both good.

God has been speaking to man since his first steps on Earth. The commonality of these teachings is a testament to their truths. I am Christian but I love reading Hindu texts, they to speak of God’s holiness.

Jesus was not Christian or Jewish; he is a man of God.

Great thread
Good insights.

noeticcenter

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum

All yogas, raja yoga, karma yoga, jnana yoga,bhakti yoga lead to the same path and goal, which is enlightenment.

Certainly one could be a Christian and a Buddhist experiencing salvation and enlightnement.
I believe that salvation and enlightenment is one and the same thing.
_______

Noetic Response:

It all depends on who defines what as SALVATION & ENLIGHTENMENT

For example: " The god of this World (is it the brahman of samsara?) has BLINDED (if there is no darkness, there need be no enlightenment) the MINDS
(reason begins there, not emotions, not the bodies) of those who BELIEVE NOT (EVIDENTIAL written record during a period of two millennia by over 40 human authors of almost 20 different backgrounds from Sovereigns to Servants), lest the LIGHT (ENLIGHTENMENT) of the GLORIOUS GOSPEL(OBJECTIVE) of the MESSIAH (EVIDENTIAL via over two hundred direct PROPHETIC FULFILLMENTS, besides thousands of indirect pointers from about 1000 years even before Moses) who is the IMAGE (INCARNATION) of Elohim should SHINE (ENLIGHTEN) unto them......For ELOHIM who commanded the light to shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts, to give the LIGHT of the KNOWLEDGE of the GLORY of ELOHIM in the face of YAH SHUA MESSIAH.
2Corinthians 4: 4-5
~~
And where are his 'routines ' given!!!

[noeticcenter;19966]

At least for the first two years He was in Egypt. Then we see him lost in the Temple at age 12 during their annual visits there for Passover. Then his routines are given till the age 30.

1. Every family has to visit Jerusalem Temple at least one Feast of the Lord an year, usually Passover.

2. Greek Physician and Historian who was very specific for details give this account: " AND He came to Nazareth (after Baptism by John) and as His CUSTOM was He went into the Synagogue on the Sabath Day and stood up to read..." Luke 4: 16. He read from the Torah scrolls (Prophet Isaiah, prophesying about what HE was doing right there).

[noeticcenter;19966] Noetic: Einstein is not infallible. Gautamma though a prince was inferior to the Brahmins

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things as a meaningful unity" - Albert Einstein
Jeannette
[url]http://jeannett.snow.prohosting.com
Siddhartha was not at all interested in being superior or inferior to the Brahmins. He was more interested in finding out the cause of suffering and the purpose of life.

[noeticcenter]; That is o.k. All the same he did not agree with the Vedas on Varna (color, whatever you interpret that to be) and on polytheism. He was non-theistic which simply means atheistic.

He wanted to abolish the Caste system (Caste is an English left over. They coined the word Caste for Varna = color, the rght original Hindu word. Caste system was a Color system. But, the English looked upon all as colored.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum
As you can see from the hindu scriptures, all the hindu gods, except Shiva, is black-skinned.

Vishnu, Rama and Krishna , who were worshipped by the ancient hindus and now as well, are stated in all the hindu scriptures to be black-skinned.
The mahabharatha and srimadbhagavatam, Krishna's biography, points out his beautiful black skin colour again and again. Krishna's beautiful features , his lotus eyes, his smile and his beautiful black skin, 'the colour of dark thunderclouds'( according to the scriptures ) is mentioned again and again. Arjuna, Damayanti, Vyasa, Draupadi,and other heroes and heroines are also described with dark skin in the hindu scriptures. In the Bhagavad Gita you can clearly see the blackskinned Krishna conversing with the darkskinned arjuna. So you can see from this clearly that varna means the qualities or energies of human nature and not at all skin colour.

[noeticcenter;19966]

Not quite precise. Thunderclouds is the closest, but most references to Krishna and the other gods except Yama (of Death) are depicted as Indigo Blue.

His second problem was 330 million gods of Hinduism, while the Upanishads make no such references.[/quote]


[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum]

I have no idea where u are getting all this information.
Buddha was not at all interested in theism in the first place, whether polytheism, or monotheism or monism.

Noeticcenter: Buddha was presenting an Atheistic (non-theistic) alternative to polytheism. I do not see any disagreement here, that you are citing.

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum]

"Great indeed are the devas(gods) who have sprung out of Brahman."

---Atharva Veda

[Noeticcenter]

True. But Buddha had no need of them

[noeticcenter;19966]
So, he got rid of all of them and declared Nirvana as the end of Reincarnations.[/quote]

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum]

The goal of Hinduism as well is Nirvana or Moksha or liberation from the cycle of birth or rebirth.Swami Vivekananda had stated Buddhism to be the logical fulfilment of Hinduism.

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum]

Both monism and monotheism are a part of the Vedas and the Upanishads, which were created milleniums before Jesus was born. The Bhagavad Gita too, which was written milleniums before Jesus,was also basically monistic and monotheistic.

noeticcenter:

I used the word "ALSO" deliberately. Perhaps you di not notice that.


[noeticcenter;19966]

Buddha died an ordinary death and his body was burned according to customs. Some could not believe this.

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum]

Buddha physical body died and he attained parinirvana. What is so unbelievable about this!!!!! The impermanence of all compounded things is a primary teaching of the Buddha.

noeticcenter:

I refer you to http://noeticcenter.tripod.com
OR NueroQunatology Journal 2007, June and September #'s
& Noetic Journal, October 2003, Vol 4 # 4 for Mind Matter (Nobelist Sir John Eccles Centennial Edition)

OR BROWSE on the internet for Dark Chemistry Dark Matter Dark Chemistry and Dark Matter

Dark Chemistry or Psychic Pixels

There is a scientific possibility of an Invisible Homo sapiens for every human, (no invisble bodies for plants and animals, though there could be a universal sentience at the PLANT level in all animals and humans)

Buddha died in pain as all normal human beings usually do when dying CONSCIOUS at the last moment. His followers thought He attained Nirvana. There is no eye witness account of Nirvana, never can be.

[Jeannette] Agnostic Forum]

The Buddha's last words were thus," "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence".

noeticcenter:

No matter how much you strive, death and according to the Bible JUDGeMENT
for ignoring the Incarnate Messiah are more real than Tax & Government.

The Last Words of the dying (not the RISEN) Yah Shua Messiah were: " Father forgive them...Into Thy Hands I commend my Spirit... then He GAVE UP the spirit" Greek Physician and Historian records that in Luke 23: 46.

Buddha died with STRIVINGS on his tongue, because " the WAGES of sin (strivings of sin) is DEATH, but the GIFT of Elohim is ETERNAL LIFE through Yah Shua Messia, Our Adonai. Romans 6: 23 written by a former cruel enemy of the Cross and an eye witness of the Risen Adonai.

niranjan

Have no idea what this means!!!




I had mentioned about him at the age of 12 , but there is no record of him after that.



Where!!!!




Does not mean that Jesus had visited the Temple every year. He was a free , independent, restless young man, who had a mind of his own. He certainly was not satisfied by the arguments of the priests in the Temple at the age of 12,and was found discussing and debating with them.



I have read this, and this did not take place during the 'unknown years', but after that.


For your information, there is no mention of caste system in the Vedas, which was created in the later times by the priests ( brahmins ).

The majority of the Rishis , who composed the Vedas themselves belonged to the lower economic groups. One of them was even the son of a prostitute, and he was taken by his guru as a disciple, when he honestly admitted his lineage and showed his character in the process , which immensely pleased his guru.



And the Vedas are basically monistic or monotheistic. All the gods are said by the Vedas to have emerged from the supreme impersonal Lord Brahman.

Non-theistic does not strictly mean atheistic.

Even the buddha had talked about a timeless, changeless substance pervading the entire universe.

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move." (Udana 8:3)

--- Buddha


Vishnu has been described in the scriptures as blackskinned, and same is with Krishna in the mahabharatha and the Srimad Bhagavatham. The term Krishna itself means black.

Rama has been described in the RAmayana as being of a black-brown hue.



.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

niranjan

Yup, he was only interested in attaining moksha or nirvana or enlightenment through self-effort.








There is no evidence whatsoever that Shankara was influenced by the Mission of St.Thomas, so I have no idea how you can even say 'ALSO.'

And basically Shankara preached monism, not even monotheism.



Both monism and monotheism has been taught in the vedas, upanishads, yoga vasistha, and bhagavad gita, milleniums before Jesus was born.



Great nonsense. Buddha's physical body was in pain, due to the poisoned food he had consumed, but he was in the bliss, peace and ecstacy of enlightenment which he had obtained when he was 35. He showed remarkable clarity of mind, and awareness and composure in his last moments and even then was teaching his disciples and exhorting them to tread the path earnestly.

And Nirvana is a subjective experience. There indeed can be no eyewitness account. It is completely in oneself, though its visible manifestations are in great wisdom, sensation of peaceful vibrations,serenity and love in a buddhas presence, and faster development of ones spiritual state in his presence.


Wow, thanks for the info, pal. I guess u will go to heaven, and I will go to hell. Do pay me a visit at times, pally

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

noeticcenter

Noetic Response:

It all depends on who defines what as SALVATION & ENLIGHTENMENT

For example: " The god of this World (is it the brahman of samsara?) has BLINDED (if there is no darkness, there need be no enlightenment) the MINDS
(reason begins there, not emotions, not the bodies) of those who BELIEVE NOT (EVIDENTIAL written record during a period of two millennia by over 40 human authors of almost 20 different backgrounds from Sovereigns to Servants), lest the LIGHT (ENLIGHTENMENT) of the GLORIOUS GOSPEL(OBJECTIVE) of the MESSIAH (EVIDENTIAL via over two hundred direct PROPHETIC FULFILLMENTS, besides thousands of indirect pointers from about 1000 years even before Moses) who is the IMAGE (INCARNATION) of Elohim should SHINE (ENLIGHTEN) unto them......For ELOHIM who commanded the light to shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts, to give the LIGHT of the KNOWLEDGE of the GLORY of ELOHIM in the face of YAH SHUA MESSIAH.
2Corinthians 4: 4-5.

Niranjan Writes: Have no idea what this means!!!

Noetic Response:

Well, the original verse, 2 Corinthians 4: 4-5 is very simple. Parsing it will read as follows:
1. The god of this world is the yama of Hinduism, god of death (see Hebrews 2: 14)
2. Yama blinded the MINDS of people
3. Lest the Light of the Glorious Gospel of the Messiah who is the image (incranation) of Elohim should shine unto them (ENLIGHTEN them)
4. The same Elohim who commanded the light to shine out of darkness (see Genesis 1:2) has shone in human HEARTS (minds) to give the Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of Elohim (ENLIGHTENMENT) in the Face of Yah Shua Messiah (see John ch. 1)

Originally Posted by noeticcenter

1. Every family has to visit Jerusalem Temple at least one Feast of the Lord an year, usually Passover.

Niranjan asks:

Does not mean that Jesus had visited the Temple every year. He was a free , independent, restless young man, who had a mind of his own. He certainly was not satisfied by the arguments of the priests in the Temple at the age of 12,and was found discussing and debating with them.

Noetic Response:

1. “ And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth and was SUBJECT unto them.. and increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2: 52-52, the record of a Greek Physician and Historian, meticulous for details). Yearly Passover visit to the temple was mandatory for all Jewish Families. “ Now His parents went to Jerusalem EVERY year at the Feast of the Passover” (Luke 2: 41).

The Messiah is the Passover Lamb ordained so “BEFORE the foundation of the world” and “ SLAIN FROM the foundation of the world” (Peter Revelation )
Originally Posted by noeticcenter

2. Greek Physician and Historian who was very specific for details give this account: " AND He came to Nazareth (after Baptism by John) and as His CUSTOM was He went into the Synagogue on the Sabath Day and stood up to read..." Luke 4: 16. He read from the Torah scrolls (Prophet Isaiah, prophesying about what HE was doing right there).

Niranjan asks:

I have read this, and this did not take place during the 'unknown years', but after that.

Noetic Response: No, He only continued His CUSTOM at Nazareth from Age Tweve to Age 30. The Baptism is at Age 30 for initiation into the Public Ministry. He returned to Nazareth after 40 days in the desert tempted by yama (god of this world, of death).

Niranjan writes:

For your information, there is no mention of caste system in the Vedas, which was created in the later times by the priests ( brahmins ).

The majority of the Rishis , who composed the Vedas themselves belonged to the lower economic groups. One of them was even the son of a prostitute, and he was taken by his guru as a disciple, when he honestly admitted his lineage and showed his character in the process , which immensely pleased his guru.


Noetic Response:

No body is arguing this point. The Aryan Invasion brought in the Varna discriminations. The Dravidians whom they conquered and later intermarried were of COPPER color. Varna is not Vedic, it is Aryan.

Niranjan Writes:

And Nirvana is a subjective experience. There indeed can be no eyewitness account. It is completely in oneself, though its visible manifestations are in great wisdom, sensation of peaceful vibrations,serenity and love in a buddhas presence, and faster development of ones spiritual state in his presence.

And the Vedas are basically monistic or monotheistic. All the gods are said by the Vedas to have emerged from the supreme impersonal Lord Brahman.

Non-theistic does not strictly mean atheistic.

Noetic Response.

True, non-theism is not necessarily Atheism, but Budha’s version of non-theism is for all practical purposes Atheism, unless you define theism as Nirvana and every one who goes into Nirvana as a deity.

All experiences are in some way experiments. All experiments to be valid must be falsifiable. You see the color RED. That is a very REAL experiment with photons and real lenses and optical nerves and wavelengths. “There is nothing subjective about that PART”. There are over 6 billion conscious people today who can attest to seeing RED and be REAL Eye witnesses. The question as to why certain wavelength is seen as Red and another as Yellow is a different question, altogether.

Nirvana to be a falsifiable experiment must be verifiable by third person experience. As to what Nirvana really is, or why Nirvana is felt as Enlightment (Red) and not as Darkness (Yellow) is an altogether different question. That does not belong to the Experimental realm. Normal people with no color blindness can see RED, can picture RED and share that EXPERIMENTAL experience with each other. All subjective experiences are thus evidential and SUBSTANTIALLY objective.

So, also was the Resurrection of the Messiah. There was only one Messiah and He is not dying and rising up every day. If that were the case, then it will be a routine event similar to Sunrise and Sunset. That is why, that event had to be certified by Eyewitnesses- both friends and foes. There are well established universal Rules of Evidence to verify if an eye witness account is true. The more the number of Eyewitnesses, the easier it is to verify.

Simon Greenly was an internationally known Royale Professor of Law at Harvard. He has authored a Three Volume work on Rules of Evidence which is still the final authority on evidence. He mentioned Resurrection as example of non-evidential report. He was an Orhtodox Jew. A student asked him: “ Have you examined the evidence?” He said no, admitted his mistake and promised the class he will do so. He did. Took him over an year of research and study, beginning with the Gospels and the Book of Acts. He then went to the class and confessed:” Sorry, Resurrection records pass all rules of evidence”.


Is there any rule of evidence applicable for Nirvana? Your comments on moneism and monotheism is the standard Vedantic position. Swami Vivekananda used that to make his inroads into the Western ethos, through the Unitarian folks. Sankar did the same with the Buddhism which once engulfed India. [Vedas are really very different from folksy Hinduism. Nehru’s Discovery of India mentions that Vedas even offer beef as a dainty! Long ago, I was once with a Brahmin lawyer in the Empress of Britain, from England. I had Fish and Chips. He had beef. I was curious, he told me “These are Brittish Cows”, they should be killed and eaten].

No matter how you coat it, a polytheistic monism CANNOT be the TRIUNE MONOTHEISM of the Messiah.

niranjan

Yama is the god of death in Hinduism, dude. It does not in any way become the god of this world, unless you see Yama as the manifestation of Brahman, in the light of the vedas which states that all the gods have sprung from the supreme Lord Brahman.








Jesus had indeed been in the Temple at the age of 12 , discussing and debating with the priests over there, but there is no proof of his doing that for the next 18 years of his life , monotonously.




More nonsense again. The aryan invasion , concocted by prejudiced racist western scholars has been found to be a myth in the light of the latest scientific discoveries like the finding of the Saraswati's river bed, and the submerged city in dwaraka and other stuff.

The term Arya , means the noble person , or the man of wisdom and culture, and does not represent any racial affiliation.

<<<Varna is not Vedic, it is Aryan. >>>

That is extremely stupid. The Vedas themselves states , ""KRINVANTO VISHWAM ARYAM "---- Meaning " Make everyone an Arya ( noble person ) "

The term Arya and varna all springs from the Rishis who created the Vedas.




Buddha never spoke much of God, and instead emphasized self-reliance and self-effort to attain nirvana or moksha or enlightenment.

However Buddha did speak of this...

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move." (Udana 8:3)



In Hinduism, Nirvana or moksha or enlightenment , can also be obtained through bhakti yoga, ( the yoga of love ) for God.


And I suppose you know what I am thinking of at the moment, as my subjective experiences are substantially objective to you and evidential!!!!!!!!!!




What I have stated above is the evidences, along with the evidences described by the dharmic scriptures.

Yup.

Through unitarian, I suppose you mean the christian scientists who preached pantheism. If so , not at all.





Hinduism is polytheistic, even triune monotheistic ( through the trinity , which i have mentioned in a previous post in this thread ) , monotheistic, and in essence, monistic.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

noeticcenter

[niranjan;21580]Yama is the god of death in Hinduism, dude. It does not in any way become the god of this world, unless you see Yama as the manifestation of Brahman, in the light of the vedas which states that all the gods have sprung from the supreme Lord Brahman.

Noetic Center

Niranjan is right. In Vedas Yama is NOT the god of this world. The Bible declares just the opposite. Yama is the god of this world. Hebrews 2: 14 reads in part as follows: "he that has the power of death is the devil..." He is also called " god of this world" (2Corinthians 4:4-5). Prophet Daniel called him "the prince of Persia", "the prine of Greece", "the prince to come". The Messiah called him "the prince of this world". This is where the Bible is very different from all other books. There is a permissive will of the Creator who permits His creatures to exercise their choice to obey or rebel. He continues tht permission untill all "iniquity" is complete, then He finally deals with it with justice. There is a paranthesis to this predicament. The Creator took upon Himself the judgement He first pronounced at the beginning of human rebellion, the consequences of which (death being one) all humans inherit, just as some diseases are inherited.

This is a very sharp and defining distinction from all other world views. That is why there can be no such thing as a "Christian Nation", only a nation of Christians. As Betrand Russel, the atheist put it, a Class of Elephants is not elephants. It is a class. So also, according to the Bible, a Nation of Chrisitans is not Christian, it is a Nation.

All Nations are under the god of this world (yama) by temporary permission from the Creator. The god of death is marching on. Any News Medium of any Nation will easily attest to that. Only One who conquered death for humans can LEGITIMATELY fix him up. That is the Biblical world view, not necessarily held by any and every one who has a Christian name.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Niranjan asks: Jesus had indeed been in the Temple at the age of 12 , discussing and debating with the priests over there, but there is no proof of his doing that for the next 18 years of his life , monotonously.

I have read this, and this did not take place during the 'unknown years', but after that. [noeticcenter;20489]

Noetic Response: Custom means habit, routine, ritual. His custom was to read the Torah every Sabbath in Nazareth. He continued that all his tean age and adult life up to age 30. In between all Israelites are required to go to the Temple in Jerusalem thrice every year. No, He only continued His CUSTOM at Nazareth from Age Tweve to Age 30. The Baptism is at Age 30 for initiation into the Public Ministry. He returned to Nazareth after 40 days in the desert tempted by yama (god of this world, of death). Then as His custom was, habit or routine was, he went into the Synagogue and read from the Torah (Isaiah). This "Unknown Years" is a pure fabrication of mystics and figment of immagination of the New Age gurus.


More nonsense again. The aryan invasion , concocted by prejudiced racist western scholars has been found to be a myth in the light of the latest scientific discoveries like the finding of the Saraswati's river bed, and the submerged city in dwaraka and other stuff.

The term Arya , means the noble person , or the man of wisdom and culture, and does not represent any racial affiliation.
~~~~~~~
Noetic Response

We cannot rewrite history. Aryans are those who lived in the Iranian Plateau of southern Asia between the Caspian Sea and the Hindu Kush mountain range. They did invade India. there is nothing unusual about it. Who has not invaded India? Perhaps the Eskimos and American Indians did not?

<<<Varna is not Vedic, it is Aryan. >>>

That is extremely stupid. The Vedas themselves states , ""KRINVANTO VISHWAM ARYAM "---- Meaning " Make everyone an Arya ( noble person ) "

The term Arya and varna all springs from the Rishis who created the Vedas.
~~~~~

The Vedas were written during the Vedic Age. The caste system originated with the assymilation of Aryans into the Vedic culture, when Vedas were still being written, unless you insist on the notion of Sanatana Vedas written in some eternity past, for which there is no empirical evidence. Rishis were human beings.


[noeticcenter;20489]


Niranjan Writes:

And Nirvana is a subjective experience. There indeed can be no eyewitness account. It is completely in oneself, though its visible manifestations are in great wisdom, sensation of peaceful vibrations,serenity and love in a buddhas presence, and faster development of ones spiritual state in his presence.

And the Vedas are basically monistic or monotheistic. All the gods are said by the Vedas to have emerged from the supreme impersonal Lord Brahman.

Non-theistic does not strictly mean atheistic.

Noetic Response.

True, non-theism is not necessarily Atheism, but Budha’s version of non-theism is for all practical purposes Atheism, unless you define theism as Nirvana and every one who goes into Nirvana as a deity. .[/quote]


Buddha never spoke much of God, and instead emphasized self-reliance and self-effort to attain nirvana or moksha or enlightenment.

However Buddha did speak of this...

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move." (Udana 8:3)


In Hinduism, Nirvana or moksha or enlightenment , can also be obtained through bhakti yoga, ( the yoga of love ) for God.


And I suppose you know what I am thinking of at the moment, as my subjective experiences are substantially objective to you and evidential!!!!!!!!!!
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Noetic response: They are not MAYA. That is all what it means. They have a an objective REAL material substrate. Perhaps your thoughts may even have some weight, real weight, negligible though. They could be made of axions. Read http://noeticcenter.tripod.com and http://noeticcenter.tripod.com/blog



[noeticcenter;20489]


Is there any rule of evidence applicable for Nirvana? [/quote]

What I have stated above is the evidences, along with the evidences described by the dharmic scriptures.

Yup.

Through unitarian, I suppose you mean the christian scientists who preached pantheism. If so , not at all.

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Noetic: Unitarians a