Jayhawker Soule

Provide evidence for your claim that "early references to reincarnation in the New Testament were deleted in the 4th century by Emperor Constantine".

As for the rest ...

Quote:

Members of what is commonly called the "New Age" movement often claim that early Christians believed in reincarnation. Shirley MacLaine, an avid New Age disciple, recalls being taught: "The theory of reincarnation is recorded in the Bible. But the proper interpretations were struck from it during an ecumenical council meeting of the Catholic Church in Constantinople sometime around A.D. 553, called the Council of Nicaea [sic]" (Out on a Limb, 234–35). Historical facts provide no basis for this claim. In fact, there was no Council of Nicaea in A.D. 553. Further, the two ecumenical councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325 and A.D. 787) took place in the city of Nicaea (hence their names)—and neither dealt with reincarnation. What did take place in A.D. 553 was the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople. But records from this Council show that it, too, did not address the subject of reincarnation. None of the early councils did. The closest the Second Council of Constantinople came to addressing reincarnation was, in one sentence, to condemn Origen, an early Church writer who believed souls exist in heaven before coming to earth to be born. New Agers confuse this belief in the preexistence of the soul with reincarnation and claim that Origen was a reincarnationist. Actually, he was one of the most prolific early writers against reincarnation! Because he is so continually misrepresented by New Agers, we have included a number of his quotes below, along with passages from other sources, all of which date from before A.D. 553, when the doctrine of reincarnation was supposedly "taken out of the Bible." - Catholic Answers

You say "I felt it was quite logical". What you meant was "I made it up". What is truly pathetic is the fact that you don't seem to understand the difference.

niranjan

I don't think you should take the catholic scholars seriously. They have a history of dubious lies , propaganda, blunders and errors.


I have seen a picture of catholic priests and the pope blessing adolf hitler , with their hands on his head, smiling.


The fascist Benito Mussolini, even though he was at the peak of his power and tyranneous rule and slaughtering all his political opponents publicly, and indulging in a reign of terror, still was baptized by the catholic church, who instead of condemning him, blessed him.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

niranjan

The church always sought to have a kind of monoploly on spiritual experience, and anyone claiming to have such experience was usually regarded with suspicion. Even Teresa of Avila, another prominant catholic mystic, was accused at one time of being in league with the devil, and subjected to reigorous examination (which she passed - they accepted her experiences as genuine).
In the case of the Cathari, it all ended in the Albigensian Crusade, when the church wiped them out in a very bloody manner. The final act was the burning to death in a single day of over 300 so called 'perfecti' - cathars who had taken the initiation known as the consolatumentum.
Implicated in this act of oppression and mass murder, was St.Dominic, and it led to the establishment of the office of the Inquisition, dedicated to root out heresy in all it's forms. Their methods are well known.

So when we speak of the catholic church, we have to bear in mind this long and bloody history of oppression and deviation from christ's teaching.



Great figures like meister eckhart was declared as an heretic by Pope John XXII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meister_Eckhart


Similarly many innocent women were tortured and burned at the stake by the catholic church.

Check this out....


http://atheism.about.com/od/christi...ure-Witches.htm


Many inquisitions and massacres were perpetrated by the catholic church, as you may be well aware.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

niranjan

The Ahmediyas and Jesus Christ


The ahmadiyas, a sect of Islam , also firmly believes that Jesus had been to India after the crucifixion.


http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

niranjan

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Jayhawker Soule

You don't think ... you simply fabricate. That you should deem yourself capable of evaluating scholarship is as perverse as it is laughable.

Now, once again, provide evidence for your claim that "early references to reincarnation in the New Testament were deleted in the 4th century by Emperor Constantine" or shut up.

niranjan

And why not ? Do you have any idea of what happened to galileo . He was declared a heretic by the church for saying that the earth moved around the sun .

This was the statement they issued for their condemnation of Galileo, and for proclaiming him a heretic and putting him under house arrest, even though he was quite old and going blind as well. His works were also banned.

"The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures".

Galileo is now in the modern era referred to as the "father of modern observational astronomy" as the "father of modern physics", and as the "father of science". Isaac newton and albert einstein were his biggest admirers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

And I very well know what happened to servetus, giordano bruno,joan and others....

SERVETUS

His interests included many sciences: astronomy and meteorology; geography, jurisprudence, study of the Bible, mathematics, anatomy, and medicine. He is renowned in the history of several of these fields, particularly medicine and theology.

Servetus too was burned at the stake, for the audacity of " insulting doctrine "and attacking fundamentalism, and for expressing his own thoughts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus


Giordano Bruno


Giordano Bruno (1548, Nola – February 17, 1600, Rome) was an Italian philosopher, priest, cosmologist, and occultist. Bruno is known for his system of mnemonics based upon organized knowledge and as an early proponent of the idea of an infinite and homogeneous universe. Burned at the stake as a heretic by the Roman Inquisition, Bruno is seen by some as the first "martyr for science."

The numerous charges against Bruno, based on some of his books as well as on witness accounts, included blasphemy, immoral conduct, and heresy in matters of dogmatic theology, and involved some of the basic doctrines of his philosophy and cosmology. Luigi Firpo lists them as follows:

Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
Dealing in magics and divination.
Denying the Virginity of Mary.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno


CHARLES DARWIN

Darwin was also severely criticized by the church for his scientific treatise on evolution and was subjected to a lot of attacks , then and now as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin

(Both hinduism and buddhism advocates evolution )





Also homosexuals were also given a raw deal by the church and were persecuted.

http://www.iwgonline.org/docs/persecution.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori..._by_Christians

http://religion.netscape.com/story/2...f-homosexuals/

(Hinduism and buddhism does not condemn homosexuality in any way or manner.)


And yeah, I don't think the church is in any way capable of evaluating scholarship.


I believe everyone need a lot of broadmindedness and should try to eradicate all your prejudices and be led only by reason.

When the Indian numeral system and mathematics came to Europe, the pope condemned it as the' devils numbers', out of sheer prejudice, because it was so foreign to them,so mysterious, and hence they did not trust it.

But broadminded scholars and savants quickly understood the value of Indian mathematics and adopted it.

Now the Indian numeral system is the base of modern science and technology.

As Albert Einstein said, "We have to be grateful to the Indians for teaching us how to count without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made. "


And I think it is highly probable that if Indian mathematics had not reached Europe, Europe would still have been in the dark ages.

It is Indian mathematics that powered western science and technology, which promoted rationalism , logic and scientific thinking, which eventually lifted Europe out of the fog and darkness of the Dark Ages.


The same thing happened in America when yoga came over there. The christian fundamentalists termed it as the' devils exercises'.

Now yoga is a rage in America and the whole world, and millions of Americans themselves study and practice yoga, because of its tangible benefits physically, mentally, intellectually, emotionally, socially, all of which has been confirmed by scientific research.

As a result of all this, Christian centres themselves have now adopted yoga, and has termed it as christian yoga, which includes practicing the yogic exercises along with chanting the christian scriptures.

So you can very well see that the 'devils exercises ' , 'the devils numbers' , all which was considered to be heretical by prejudiced minds, have actually changed mankind for the better.

If people had sticked to their prejudices , none of this would have happened.




And I see that even though I gave an honest explanation on why I wrote like that , you still keep on bashing and harassing me continuously in that point, like a typical fundie.


I have put numerous other posts as well in this thread. Why not debate me on those points as well !!!


Any way I would deeply appreciate it , if you would have the civility and heart to give me a patient hearing.

Thanking you,

Niranjan.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Jayhawker Soule

niranjan

Here is an interesting article from the wikipedia on the astonishing similarities between christianity and buddhism and their possible links considering their common origin in the east.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Buddhism


"Consider others as yourself." (Dhammapada 10:1) --- Buddha

Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Gospel of Luke 6:31)
---jesus christ

-----------------------------

"If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon any desires and utter no evil words." (Majjhima Nikaya 21:6)

--- buddha

"If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also." (Luke 6:29)

--- jesus christ

------------------------------

Hatreds do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good ... Overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth." (Dhammapada 1.5 & 17.3)

--- Buddha


Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. From anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them back." (Luke 6:27-30)

---jesus christ

----------------------------------

If you do not tend one another, then who is there to tend to you? Whoever would tend me, he should tend the sick." (Vinaya, Mahavagga 8:26:3)
--- buddha


Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." (Gospel of Matthew 25:45)

---jesus christ

---------------------------------

Abandoning the taking of life, the ascetic Gautama dwells refraining from taking life, without stick or sword." (Digha Nikaya 1:1:8)

---- buddha


Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take the sword shall perish by the sword." (Matt. 26:52)

--- jesus christ

------------------------------------

... all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the liberation of mind by loving kindness. The liberation of mind by loving kindness surpasses them all and shines forth, bright and brilliant. (Itivuttaka 27;19-2)
Just as a mother would protect her only child at the risk of her own life, even so, cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world." (Metta Sutta)

--- buddha


This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friend." (John 15:12-13)

--- jesus christ

------------------------------------


Just as rain penetrates a badly-covered house, so passion enters a dispersed mind. Just as rain does not penetrate a well-covered house, so too does passion not enter a well-developed mind (Dh 1:13-14).

--- buddha


Everyone who hears my words and does them is like a man who built a house on rock. The rain fell, a torrent broke against the house, and it did not fall, for it had a rock foundation.
But everyone who hears my words and does not do them is like a man who built a house on sand. The rain came, the torrent broke against it, and it collapsed. The ruin of that house was great (QS 14).

---- jesus christ


-------------------------------------------------

It's easy to see the errors of others, but hard to see your own. You winnow like chaff the errors of others, but conceal your own — like a cheat, an unlucky throw. If you focus on the errors of others,
constantly finding fault, your effluents flourish. You're far from their ending. (Dhammapada Mahavagga 252-253)

---- buddha

Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, "Friend, let me take the speck out of your eye," when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye." (Luke 6:41-42)

---jesus christ

----------------------------------------------


Do not look at the faults of others, or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done." (Dhammapada 4:7)

---- buddha


He said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:4-7)

---jesus christ

----------------------------------------------


Let us live most happily, possessing nothing; let us feed on joy, like the radiant gods." (Dhammapada 15:4)

--- buddha

Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20).

--- jesus christ


-----------------------------------------------



The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond." (Dhammapada 13:11)

--- buddha


If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." (Matt.19:21)

--- jesus christ


-----------------------------------------


when a tathagatha arises in the world,.. then there is the manifestation of great light and radiance: then no blinding darkness prevails. (Samyutta Nikaya 56:38; V442)

--- buddha


Jesus is the light of the world - John 8:12
Those who do the truth come to the light - John 3:17-21


--------------------------------------------


Plucking out her lovely eye, with mind unattached she felt no regret.
'Here, take this eye. It's yours.'

Straightaway she gave it to him. Straightaway his passion faded right there, and he begged her forgiveness. (Therigata 14.1 Subha and the Libertine)



And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matt. 5:29–30).

--- jesus christ

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Jayhawker Soule

Lock the thread ...