Curious

The promise of “life after death” is central to religion. Without the promise of “salvation”, religion has nothing to sell (and clerics would find it necessary to find another source of income). Religion is a profit-making business based upon human weakness and fear.

If one accepts the reality of death, it is not necessary (or logical) to strive to achieve “eternal salvation” or to avoid “eternal damnation”. There is absolutely no evidence that either “heaven” or “hell” exist or that a human “soul” can transcend death. Wishful, mystical thinking and imagination provide those “explanations” to ease the fear of death (for self or loved ones).

The cost for pursuing “eternal bliss” is to obey clerics during the one life we know we will live in quest of "happiness" in an "eternity" that we are told exists.

WilliamBlue

Yep, a carrot sure does help, that is the reason I think reincarnation is also not part of the western view as it is hard to convince people if they believe they have many opportunities. But there are some religions that believe in reincarnation, therefore I would have to say no, as it is only central to western religions(control freaks). Now if your question is "Is western religion viable without the Promise of an after life?" then probably.

Bill

PS I think reincarnation may have been part of the original bible but got 'lost' in translation somewhere along the way.

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When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?
Anger is like you drinking poison and hoping your enemy will die.

Og

The world is changing. Science is lighting a fire that's acting as a candle in the darkness. Things Exist. We've been poking in the dark for so long about this truth and making up all sorts of reasons for being. We now come to a cusp in human history.

Literally, what is happening is what happened to the native americans as their culture was decimated by the "white man." They lost their world and end up having a massive substance abuse and poverty problem as they're surrounded by something terribly alien in an environment that used to represent a lot to them.

Joseph Campbell has a great book called "myths to live by" and his opening chapter talks about how science is doing exactly this to modern myth. It is taking them and dashing them over the rocks.

The question will remain: "What is this that we perceive?" and "What are we?" and "what does it mean to be?"

Now that science has helped to chart the world we live in, our new myths turn to science fiction. They turn to the stars. The greatest myths of our time now talk about the hero going into the depths of space where they may encounter all manner of elements associated with the psyche instead of traveling "north" or going into the "dark forest to fight the dragon or find the grail."

People that were born to and indoctrinated into the old religions will find that their cultures are going to descend into poverty and self destruction as they can not exist in ignorance in the face of so much wonderful reality that science inevitably brings them.

Religious experiences will still exist. I have them quite often when I look at the stars or at something I'm studying and say "WHAT THE HELL!" and my body tingles with simply asking the question "what?" All in reference to simply existing.

That mystery will always drive us.

And we have a new way of addressing that mystery in a wonderful manner that has provided insights that NO prophet or holy man in history has been able to express. It's allowed for a completely new kind of world of interconnected humans and a new type of human population.

There will be people who will have trouble adapting (as always) and people who won't want to accept reality (as always). But, the bottom line will always be,

"I exist, and Identity... The powerful play goes on and I get to contribute a verse"

Wild stuff. There's no need to fear death. It's real and part of all of this. You don't ever disappear. It's just a reorganization of patterns. The universe is.

Agnosticism and the scientific method are the new vehicle that is taking hold and driving man through his experience and it expresses and exposes a wonderful thing and connects us to what is real in a way never before accomplished.

What it illustrates is inevitable. Those who choose to remain ignorant will end up self destructing. That's what's so cool about what is real and true. It needs no defense or proselytizing. It holds its own and can be illustrated to one and all and can withstand testing and time.

We've finally stepped up as a society and said "we don't know, but we want to find out."

And that's the essence of the new era of humanity that we are entering in to. Its something never before seen. It's always been a society based on religious axioms. Now the opposite is true. Axioms are discarded and agnosticism is the true way to approach all things.

Those who don't get onboard will self destruct.

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The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

The An-Jel

Damn Og that was so well said!

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Og

Also, this is NOT true for the oriental religions (buddhism/hinduism). The goal in those religions is to attain nirvana which is to dissolve and to not exist. Quite different than what we have over here in the west.

So the answer is "Yes" to the question of this thread. Just go east of Suez to find out how it works.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

niranjan

I agree with An-Jel . Well said. This should be the attitude of every seeker of truth.

Your words truly echo the teaching of the Buddha ....


Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for your teacher. But whatever after due consideration and analysis you find to be conducive to the good , the benefit, the welfare of all beings, that doctrine , believe and cling to and take it as your guide.
- Buddha

Og

I agree. Buddhism is a wonderful vehicle for life.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

niranjan

I wouldn't exactly agree with that. Buddhism does state that on achieving nirvana one becomes empty or shunya or void or zero.
Hinduism states that on achieving nirvana, one becomes one with the universe or pure consciousness , which is all pervading , and is charecterised by' Being, Truth and Bliss.'

You yourself have quoted this in your profile......


Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That

I would like to add one more Upanishadic verse to it ....

Aham Brahmasmi - I am He.


And this has been echoed by enlightened masters like Ramana Maharshi, Adi Shankaracharya, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Eckhart Tolle and others.


The Sufi masters , Ibn Arabi and Masood, too stated through their mystic experience the pantheistic unity of God and his creation.( For this reason sufis were persecuted by orthodox Islamic adherents.)

Ibn Arabi stated "The existence of all created things is His existence. Thou dost not see, in this world or the next, anything beside God."

"Thou art not thou: thou art He. Thou never wast nor wilt be, Thou art neither ceasing to be nor still existing. Thou art He. "

"The knower and that which he knows are both one, and he who unites and that with which he unites are one, and seer and seen are one. "


According to Eckhart Tolle and the other enlightened masters, in its most subtle form, there exists nothing but consciousness, and that energy and matter are its manifestations.

According to Mata Amritanandamayi, the female Indian enlightened master, one ought to annihilate the ego completely in order to attain enlightenment.In her own words " One ought to become a zero , in order to become a hero. And when one destroys the ego completely, one realizes that one is pure all pervading consciousness, the Infinite himself."

Og

Yah, Aham and Adam (of adam and eve).. interesting how the sounds for I are so similar in the east and west

Hinduism as you state (and as my signature remarks) does point to satchitananda and nirvana. In both the buddhist and hindu cases, this is a dissolution of the self. Truly realizing "Tat Tvam Asi"... That there is no distinction.

There is no sense of self (ego) in this realization and that is what I was trying to include. Not simply that the self dissolves in some way.

I think the east illustrates that the true nature of what we are is this. Enlightenment brings the realization that there are no distinctions. Tat Tvam Asi.

As for "nothing existing but consciousness," I really don't know what context they're using this to describe things. Consciousness is a process of the brain that has to do with the distinctions of out and in. Sensors bring in information and process it and cause behavior that leads to survival and replication.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

niranjan

Through this what Eckhart and others said was that the whole cosmos or universe or existence , in its most subtle form, is but consciousness. And that energy and matter are its manifestations.