epicureious

Hi William, I am new to the forum, so I don't know what you mean by your definition
of Christian. Could there may be more than one.

What's all this about a page being deleted? Censorship? What was one it?

WilliamBlue

Not that I know of... from wikipedia

The original poster (An-Jel) has a link that went to a page on wikipedia, I followed said link and the page was listed as gone. Now wikipedia was founded by Christians I think, thus the answer to your question about censorship is still up in the air As to what was on it I believe it was a definition of Agnostic Christians, didn't see it myself though.

__________________
When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?

Vinterland

No, there is no conflict unless one insists on a very narrow definition of what a Christian is.The Wiki article is long gone, but if you read the initial post, you can easily find hundreds of pages with topics about agnosticism applied to Christianity. Google is your friend.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

epicureious

[quote=WilliamBlue;16755]Not that I know of... from wikipedia

William, I looked up the Wiki page you cited above. If you go to the end of that page with that definition you see this explanation of what different groups consider as "Christian"
Don't you think it would be possible to be baptized as an infant, a member of the church, and without the doctrinal orientation you mentioned? If so, could that not be an agnostic Christian?

WilliamBlue

No, I tend to think of Christian in the hard definition, baptism is just a ceremony and too me does not define a Christian, I was baptized, but I no longer call myself a Christian. Using the word Christian as a descriptor of oneself implies that you have accepted that Jesus Christ is our savior and all that implies, thus Christ-ian. I would also personally prefer not to add these (closet?) Christian to the agnostic definition as then I would have to seek out another definer for myself , and that might be difficult to find.
It seems to me that there are few people on this board trying to re-write the dictionary and fuzzy the lines(divide and conquer?), I am agnostic because I have no proof of any gods or Gods, now if you want to lean in a certain direction that is a personal choice but it should not require a separate label... geez.

Christian - Accepts Jesus Christ as our savior(also God as his father)

Agnostic - Requires the proof of existence of Gods or gods(reserves judgment)

Atheist - Denies the existence of God or gods(there is no God)

But of course if we stuck to these definitions we wouldn't have a lot to argue about

__________________
When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?

epicureious

You sound like one of those Orthodox Agnostics

WilliamBlue

Lol

__________________
When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?

Skepticologist

OK, so what definition of a Christian is compatible with agnosticism? I'm sure one probably exists; if not, I'll make one up. However, for purposes of discussion, it's helpful to agree on a single definition.

If we agree on the Wikipedia definition offered by epicureious, i.e. "A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, a monotheistic[1] religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament.[2] Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God and the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.", the elements monotheistic and Son of God make Christianity blatantly incompatible with agnosticism.

With regard to Google, I don't consider it a friend, but a helpful resource. And I'll lay odds that there are even more pages that equate the war in Iraq with freedom and justice as there are that equate agnosticism and Christianity. But that doesn't make it true.

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

epicureious

While I agree with you both that the squared off definition of Christianity you give above is not agnostic, I offered a much wider definition of Christianity from the Wiki article that William Blue and then you quoted above. What William Blue quoted and stuck to was essentially an evangelical (orthdoxish) definition by faith/doctrine/belief. According to that Wikki article (reading all the way down to the bottom of the page) not all who call themselves Christian are evangelical and fit that definition. Hence, plenty of room for wiggle as agnostics.

Many "heresies" were squashed by Rome, Constantinopal and later by the Protestants (Bavaria? Geneva? ) to get to the one size fits all at the top of the Wikki article. For example, the Gnostics were not to be seen in the Wikki article. They might be the first to admit agnosticm in their gnosticm. Although we have not yet heard from the Agnostic Gnostics, evangelicals most likely writing Wikki wouldn't consider them Christian because they disapprove of some other belief that disagrees with their beliefs like reincarnation or the humanity and not diety of christ. The Coptic Christians did not believe in the diety of Christ until they were bullied into it by a papal bull (what a good name for it) that cursed anyone who disagreed. I dislike reinforcing bullying that forces even groups with whom I disagree into a single definition. It gives momentum and in a way protects their illusion of "pure" doctrine. To reflect reality more accurately, why can't we just define what we mean when we say it without rubber stamping the evangelicals and fundamentalists?

Vinterland

Both Wiki and William have correctly defined what a Christian is

And I should add that a Christian must also repent with genuine motive and good intentions.

Can you please elaborate on what it is in the definition of a Christian that makes Christianity incompatible?'

Half correct, but this definition misunderstands agnosticism.

False.
Why do you state false definitions?

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”