Abel

Og
I really could care less where these people received their education. You are the one that keeps harping on science. I am not a scientist, so I provided the names of 50 people who hold doctorates in science and believe in creation. You immediately start squeeling like a cut monkey. "False. See self assembling molecules. Learn about thermodynamics, energy barriers, enzymes, and entropy." "Again! ZERO data. Simply statements of social situations and attitudes of proposed individuals!" Blah, blah, blah.

Dude, I could care less about those things. Science is not my field. I presented these folks to show that science is not as one sided as you present it to be. There are others just as educated, if not more so, that disagree with you and do believe in some type of intelligent design. If you disagree with their findings, respond to them. I am not going to do research on them, and look at their data; you do it if you do not like their conclusions.

I will reseach theologians that you present that hold beliefs contrary to the Bible, such as Bart Ehrman. Theology is my field.

I do appreciate the advances science has made that makes life better for us. But, scientific discoveries are still limited by God. You mentioned drug resistant strain of TB (or some other disease). That's all fine and well, but God still has not allowed man to find a cure for the common cold. God is in control whether you agree or not.

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God loves you and I'm trying.

debdodd

why, oh why do you guys keep spending time arguing or even trying to discuss anything with this closed minded individual?

It must be simply for the sake of arguing or proving his ignorance over and over and over again ....

spend some time on the good threads and let this guy die in his peaceful ignorance ....

or as duck once suggested on some thread ... quit feeding the trolls ...

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"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

xexon

I don't consider Abel a troll.

I understand well his point of view, and indeed, many of you here come form a Christian background. You know that "witnessing" is a part of that culture. If I was a Christian, I'd love to hang out in an agnostic forum in hopes of reaching someone.

It is better that we discuss our differences here than on a battlefield.

And if we can enlighten this person to different views, he will be more capable of walking his current chosen path. If nothing else, it will make him a more rounded Christian.

That can't be a bad thing.



x

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Destroyer of Worlds

shadowind

intresting, someone with more physic's education correct me if i'm wrong but

when 2 particles are near enough they interact, i consider that enough to cause organization, also a hot object has a tendency to cool down to the same tempture of its enviroment. generaly when things cool down they become more solid like, more structured, particles generally become closer i think, when their closer electromagnetic and other forces are more likly to act on them and reorganize them, gravity is the farthest reaching force but one of the weakest, it draws matter together. then again i've heard that the universe is spreading out as well. i might be mistaken on this but it seems to make sense to me.

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remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

WilliamBlue

Abel, is your God omniscience and omnipotent?

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When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?

debdodd

Normally I would agree with you Xexon that is if Abel was open minded .... he nor Buzz are interested in our views or beliefs, only changing us into clones of them, saving us. They are on a personal crusade to save as many of us as they can. They are not interested in any kind of alternative enlightenment or any other kinds of truths ....

Og has given them numerous opportunities to see other "truths" many, many times and they simply say ... that is not what the bible says ... usually Xexon I would agree with you, and have, but not with either of them ....

they do not wish to look at anything from a different perspective .... only berate us for not seeing their beliefs thru the tunnel vision that they live.

"trolls" are simply thick headed individuals who do nothing more than take up time on threads .... sometimes it's fun to poke them with "verbal" sticks but then they quote scripture and threaten us with hell ... they say the same things over and over again with nothing new to add ..... same old garbage we always hear. You are correct many of us come from very, very Christian backgrounds and have decided that it is not for us. We did not come by this decision lightly and they mock us as if we were children who had not thought this through, had at times not agonized over all our childhood conditioning and in some case lost people we loved over our decisions .... we didn't wake up one day and say .... Ya know what .... I don't think I'm gonna believe in .... god, allah, yaweh or whomever ... and then lay back down a take a little nap. Many of us took years and years to come this far, others not so long but none the less ... they speak to us as if we make these decisions on a whim .... how little they know of most of us ....

Nah, Xexon, follow some of Buzz's rhetoric .... he is ready to bear arms against the government if necessary and fight against gay rights, education and enlightenment of our young people so they will not grow into open minded individuals ..... they are christian soldiers and if you think they embrace peace and a "live and let life" philosophy, then I believe you are mistaken .... there is no christian love only christian condemnation ....

Have you ever heard of the term "cut bait"? that's the best thing for these two ... no amount of education or information will ever enlighten them ... so be it ... as long as you guys like beating your heads on brick walls then you are arguing with the correct two fellows .... but hey, it's your bilateral carpal tunnel and your head on the wall .... so have at it.

I hope you can open their eyes ...... I just won't hold my breath ... all the best Xexon, Deb

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"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

xexon

People have to come to their own conclusions in their own time. Can't be brute forced.

What a person believes from one day to the next is always subject to change. The people in question are still seekers themselves. Open to change, but it will be a hard fight. Difficult to let go of one thing for another.

But they have to learn this for themselves.

The best we can do is entertain each other with various points of view, go home at the end of each day, and take stock of where we stand.



x

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Destroyer of Worlds

Og

I agree. I don't feel like I'm feeding trolls. I know the information that I deliver in response to people like Abel or Buzz is reproducible on their own and by other people. I feel like I'm doing what I can to start the slow process of changing the trajectory of human minds due to lack of information.

Even if they are very closed minded, hopefully one day they'll find another piece to the puzzle and it'll click with what I was saying and there'll be some sort of "ah ha!"

Then there's the fact that these people just throw blatant falsehoods and mischaracterizations out there. Many of their falsehoods sound quite convincing and I really hate the idea that some impressionable fence sitter without enough information will be misled.

That happened to me when I was a kid as a PhD electrical Engineer and professor at the Naval Postgraduate School in monterey, CA. He had me all onto the idea about the second law of thermodynamics preventing the rise of organized life. Man was I pissed off without limits after my freshman honors physics series the next year. I remember how betrayed I felt and I really can't stand the idea that someone would build someone up like that.

But hey, it's the intarweb. I guess people take this stuff with a grain of salt anyway (or they should).

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

xexon

The great thing about the internet is it ALLOWS discussion of spiritual matters outside the guardianship of priests and clerics.

That by itself will do much to raise humanity up and away from their influence.

We can finally think for ourselves. Perhaps for the first time in history.


x

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Destroyer of Worlds

debdodd

you are both correct that people can change ...... I have my doubts about either of them ..... perhaps because I am required to have patience all day long with my patients and when I get home I have less .... not a very good excuse but it's all I've got

You guys are tenacious, I'll give you that ..... I've about written Mr Homophobe off ..... his ignorance of today's world is appalling ... good luck to both of you .... change the world one bigot at a time

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"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."