Allah is above what you think and imagine - Page 2

Lanya · 05-08-2008, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a slave of Allah

I had some problems, but when I asked Him to help me, they all were solved.

Can you tell us more about this?

Absolute · 05-08-2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Og

You're wrong

...and "Thou art God"

Sounds familiar.

Quote:

Your submission to your god cowers you away from the controls of your rational mind and allows a parasitical idea to take over your behaviors...

So someone can come out from under the supposed "control" of their "rational" mind? This both defies the meaning of control and defines what is rational in the first place according to your materialistic philosephy (or religion, to be more accurate). If our mind evolved, then I would expect the "survival of the fittest" and reproduction cornerstones for the evolutionary theory to be the only applicable direction for the DNA to "direct" the mind to. Yet there are people who sacrifice themselves to save others, the "fitter" saving the less "fit." Also, giving up our belongings to feed the poor, again the "fitter" providing for the less "fit." And some people choose to not have any sexual intercourse with anyone at all, willingly, because they never had gotten married. And you would expect that those who do anyways to be directed by DNA to not use protection, as it isn't beneficial for producing more DNA. If we can deny DNA's supposed purpouse (to produce more DNA like itself), then our minds can't have an evolutionary origin. And if it doesn't have an evolutionary origin, then evolution can't be true, at least in the materialistic sense of the word, which says that the natural is all there is. But then that would circle right back around to materialism to define what is natural.

AB517 · 05-08-2008, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Og

Quote:

Originally Posted by a slave of Allah

This is the secret of the existence.

for this word you are created, and for this word there are Heaven and Hell, and according to this word you will be judged,
so if you satisfy this word you will go to Paradise, but if you refuse this truth you will go to Hell.
For this greatest truth God glory be to Him send the prophets peace be upon them.

You're wrong

I know the secret of existence: "You and I, no distinction." and "Thou art God"

No thing has intrinsic identity. All is impermanent. You are a confluence of events. Sending someone to hell would be like condemning a tornado for taking out a trailer park. Your submission to your god cowers you away from the controls of your rational mind and allows a parasitical idea to take over your behaviors (this post).

But again, condemning you for this or being angry at you for this would be like being angry at a tornado for taking out a trailer park. It's a product of the environment that you represent. All that I have is pity and a desire to expose all people to the product of the environment from which I emerged.

The secret of existence that I have shared above is demonstrable, repeatable, and something that anyone can come to on their own given an open mind and the willingness to dissect their world around them. It requires no book/authority.

I reject islam. They used to represent the pinnacle of rationality. Algebra and chemistry and astronomy and our numbers (arabic numerals 123etc) derive from the islamic culture. Then in 1100CE, someone said "all this natural law stuff is garbage. Everything that occurs is the will of allah." And for some reason, people listened. Then they plunged into darkness.

But again, it's a product of its environment. It's a cyclone of human experience that is occurring all over the world. At least where I am concerned, I will touch the earth and be unmoved by such delusion.

WOW

Again you think you know things that no other man knew or knows. This is the 3rd time you made such claims Og. This is typical narcissistic behavior. I do not men this to be insulting but rather to try and help.

I am not God and you need to stop thinking you are one too. We are one. The father and I, you, and us all, are one this is true.

You calling yourself God is like you calling yourself humanity.
It is just flat our wrong.
You represent a piece, like it or not, that’s all you are Og-ie.
You and the father are one.

The father is not you.

The rest is ok.
Why you stoop to insults confuses me though.

Og · 05-08-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute

So someone can come out from under the supposed "control" of their "rational" mind?

No. All behavior is rational. I think I was speaking more about an attitude. Submission (islam) versus self reliant and self awareness. Discarding this notion of soul/intrinsic identity so that you can see human beings in other people instead of caricatured infidels.

Quote:

This both defies the meaning of control and defines what is rational in the first place according to your materialistic philosephy (or religion, to be more accurate). If our mind evolved, then I would expect the "survival of the fittest" and reproduction cornerstones for the evolutionary theory to be the only applicable direction for the DNA to "direct" the mind to.

Heard of memes? That's what islam is. That's what free thinking is. As I was trying to say, both my drive towards spreading the notion of free thought/science and the OP's drive to spread islam are mental constructs that produce a behavior in a certain direction. They are products of our respective local environments (just as every component of our egos are).

I am not a materialist or an idealist (it's a null question .. i.e. unaddressable). Science is my religion/myth structure. I speak only in terms of influences, signals, communication, social structures, etc.

Quote:

Yet there are people who sacrifice themselves to save others, the "fitter" saving the less "fit." Also, giving up our belongings to feed the poor, again the "fitter" providing for the less "fit." And some people choose to not have any sexual intercourse with anyone at all, willingly, because they never had gotten married. And you would expect that those who do anyways to be directed by DNA to not use protection, as it isn't beneficial for producing more DNA. If we can deny DNA's supposed purpouse (to produce more DNA like itself), then our minds can't have an evolutionary origin.

Ahhh.. good old social darwinism. DNA does not have a will, friend. It has no purpose. The natural environment does not mold organisms. DNA Polymerase makes errors when copying DNA. DNA is damaged by carcinogens. Chromosomes are mixed to create different combinations of existing traits (sexual reproduction).

Creatures with a will to survive, survive. It's as simple as that.

Then comes the brain and a sense of self (see the garden of eden story). We become aware of our past and future and of others on a much different level. We also become aware of our inevitable death.

I wonder if you would consider a mother sacrificing her life for her child to be an act "against DNA?" She certainly is protecting her own propagation, but not her own individual survival. She has a sense of self that extends beyond her skin boundary. The same is said for people who sacrifice their lives in burning buildings or in war. Their sense of self extends to their community/cause/nation. They see their community/cause/nation continuing on and surviving due to their act and they're willing to sacrifice themselves for that survival. They, as well, have defined their sense of self beyond their skin. This is the power of the human brain.

This doesn't even begin to address the people who don't think that they are actually going to really die (i.e. goto heaven + get rewards). There's nothing in evolutionary theory that says that a creature can't be manipulated into ending its own existence (see lemmings). I wanted to say "tricked" or "confused" in place of "manipulated" in the last sentence but that would betray some prejudice towards the notion that survival is necessary.

Certainly an act like Jesus' was an act of survival. Jesus took on the role of the father of all mankind. His sacrifice could be seen as just as selfish as a mother giving her life to protect her child. It's just all about where your sense of self is defined.

What I was trying to say in my post in this thread (the secret i was speaking about) was that self really is all things (i.e. You & I, no distinction, thou art god). The simple fact that your skin doesn't enfold my neurons does not mean that we are some separate process (i.e. two independent souls).

But if you want to have a judgmental god who punishes the wicked, then independent/free souls are a NECESSITY. Without independence (intrinsic identity to individuals), good and evil are both sides of the same coin. They're both illusions.

Quote:

And if it doesn't have an evolutionary origin, then evolution can't be true, at least in the materialistic sense of the word, which says that the natural is all there is. But then that would circle right back around to materialism to define what is natural.

I hope I addressed how the mind steps in, expands the notion of the organism to a much larger group of material. Just as you throw your arm in front of your face to protect your head (willing to sacrifice your arm cells), people are willing to sacrifice themselves when they see their act protecting important parts of their community (which they define as part of their self). No one would say that protecting your head at the expense of the DNA in your arm cells is "against evolution." But it certainly isn't survival for the DNA in your arm. Your body has a larger sense of self and is willing to sacrifice components of itself to protect what it believes is its core (the mind) and rightfully so. The same is true for the firefighter and for the warrior and for the prophet on the cross. They are the arm, their community/nation/all life is what they consider to be their central essence. Sacrificing themselves for that allows their community/nation/all life to persist and survive. The environment they sacrifice themselves for created them and fosters people serving such purposes. And through their actions, the environment will persist (survive). The human brain that is aware of the inevitability of its own death will look for something grander than itself that it can help to survive. Simply living as long as possible is not a valued goal when you realize that you're really going to die, no matter what.

And again, materialism versus idealism is a useless dichotomy. There's no way to address which stance is true or not. All we have is our own experience that we can share with one another and the ability to communicate. When I say that we have no soul/intrinsic identity, I mean to say that we are all identical with the divine ground of being (nothing inherently materialistic about that). We are all as apples budding off of a tree. We are as flowers from a stem or waves from the ocean. Within each one of us the entirety of creation is expressed and we, in turn, express the entirety of creation.

This precludes the notion of a separate god. If there is something that someone would call a separate god, they are confused and simply don't realize their identity with it. Hence the "Thou art God."

Og · 05-08-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

WOW

Again you think you know things that no other man knew or knows. This is the 3rd time you made such claims Og. This is typical narcissistic behavior. I do not men this to be insulting but rather to try and help.

I thought I was clarifying the reality of "you/I, no distinction." I was discarding my ego for a sense of self that includes all things everywhere. I guess I take narcissistic (self loving) as a compliment since my self extends to include you, the original poster in this thread, and all things.

Quote:

I am not God and you need to stop thinking you are one too. We are one. The father and I, you, and us all, are one this is true.

You calling yourself God is like you calling yourself humanity.
It is just flat our wrong.
You represent a piece, like it or not, that’s all you are Og-ie.
You and the father are one.

And the piece I represent are also pieces of the pie who represent other pieces of the pie. That's my point. None of us have intrinsic identities. We are entirely defined as pieces of the whole. Our structure is derived from where we came from. Just as with all things. And this reflects into all the pieces we were derived from who all reflect their environments ad infinitum until, in any one individual, you see an expression of the entire realm of nature.

Quote:

The father is not you.

The rest is ok.
Why you stoop to insults confuses me though.

I was saying the father bit as Jesus meant it (john 10:30). It was in terms of this holographic approach to nature (all things reflecting all things). In this sense, I and the Father are one.

I didn't mean it as an insult. I was assaulting the meme of islam. I can see, however, how this poster's sense of self extends beyond their skin to include this notion of Allah. But my approach is one of free thought. Assault the memes, not the mind that carries those memes.

I apologize to all involved if they took my comments as insulting. They were not intended as such. I stand by my comments, however.

a slave of Allah · 05-08-2008, 09:24 AM

sorry, brothers.

I am not good in English, but when I talk about Allah (God) I feel as if the words exist to praise Him, and He indeed is The Praiseworthy.

so give me sometime to understand and reply, please.

thank you.

xexon · 05-08-2008, 09:35 AM

A book cannot deliver you.

x

a slave of Allah · 05-08-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astreja

Unfortunately, ASoA, I am unable to bring myself to worship your god.

First of all, I do not consider a book to be adequate proof of a god's existence.
.

I will say like what one of the prophets (PBUT) said to his people: "My advice will not benefit you -if I want to advice you-, if God want to misslead you, He is your Lord and to Him you will return".

The Holy Qur'an is The maricle book, full of Majesty:

In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

1. The Most Beneficent (Allâh)!

2. Has taught (you mankind) the Qur'ân (by His Mercy).

3. He created man.

4. He taught him eloquent speech.

5. The sun and the moon run on their fixed courses (exactly) calculated with measured out stages for each (for reckoning, etc.).

6. And the herbs (or stars) and the trees both prostrate.

7. And the heaven He has raised high, and He has set up the Balance.

8. In order that you may not transgress (due) balance.

9. And observe the weight with equity and do not make the balance deficient.

10. And the earth He has put for the creatures.

11. Therein are fruits, date-palms producing sheathed fruit-stalks (enclosing dates).

12. And also corn, with (its) leaves and stalk for fodder, and sweet-scented plants.

13. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

14. He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery.

15. And the jinns did He create from a smokeless flame of fire.

16. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

17. (He is) the Lord of the two easts (places of sunrise during early summer and early winter) and the Lord of the two wests (places of sunset during early summer and early winter).

18. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

19. He has let loosed the two seas (the salt water and the sweet) meeting together.

20. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress.

21. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

22. Out of them both come out pearl and coral.

23. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

24. And His are the ships going and coming in the seas, like mountains.

25. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

26. Whatsoever is on it (the earth) will perish.

27. And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will abide forever.

28. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

29. Whosoever is in the heavens and on earth begs of Him (its needs from Him). Every day He has a matter to bring forth (such as giving honour to some, disgrace to some, life to some, death to some, etc.)!

30. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

31. We shall attend to you, O you two classes (jinns and men)!

32. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

33. O assembly of jinns and men! If you have power to pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, then pass (them)! But you will never be able to pass them, except with authority (from Allâh)!

34. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

35. There will be sent against you both, smokeless flames of fire and (molten) brass, and you will not be able to defend yourselves.

36. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

37. Then when the heaven is rent asunder, and it becomes rosy or red like red-oil, or red hide.

38. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

39. So on that Day no question will be asked of man or jinn as to his sin, (because they have already been known from their faces either white or black).

40. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

41. The Mujrimûn (polytheists, criminals, sinners, etc.) will be known by their marks (black faces), and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet.

42. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

43. This is Hell which the Mujrimûn (polytheists, criminals, sinners, etc.) denied.

44. They will go between it (Hell) and the boiling hot water!

45. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

46. But for him who [the true believer of Islâmic Monotheism who performs all the duties ordained by Allâh and His Messenger Muhammad SAW , and keeps away (abstain) from all kinds of sin and evil deeds prohibited in Islâm and] fears the standing before his Lord, there will be two Gardens (i.e. in Paradise).[]

47. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

48. With spreading branches;

49. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

50. In them (both) will be two springs flowing (free)

51. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

52. In them (both) will be every kind of fruit in pairs.

53. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

54. Reclining upon the couches lined with silk brocade, and the fruits of the two Gardens will be near at hand.

55. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

56. Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.

57. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

58. (In beauty) they are like rubies and coral.

59. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

60. Is there any reward for good other than good?

61. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

62. And besides these two, there are two other Gardens (i.e. in Paradise).

63. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

64. Dark green (in colour).

65. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

66. In them (both) will be two springs gushing forth water.

67. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

68. In them (both) will be fruits, and date- palms and pomegranates.

69. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

70. Therein (gardens) will be fair (wives) good and beautiful;

71. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

72. Houris[] (beautiful, fair females) restrained in pavilions;

73. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

74. Whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.

75. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

76. Reclining on green cushions and rich beautiful mattresses.

77. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?

78. Blessed be the Name of your Lord (Allâh), the Owner of Majesty and Honour.

caution for women: You will be one of those girls described in the above book, nay you will be more beautiful than they, if you are believer.

greywolf90 · 05-08-2008, 12:41 PM

wow great stuff og. i love your whole concept of self, sacrifice, and core. i never really thought about self sacrifice really being an extension of self preservation, but it really makes sense to me now. your point on how the brain sacrifices the arm in order to protect itself reminded me of apoptosis, where billions of your cells kill themselves for the benefit of the core. it also never occured to me that your self can be extended beyond your body (i vaguely remember you mentioning this sometime before, but i didn't understand it). your ideas really gave me some food for thought.

a slave of Allah · 05-08-2008, 01:48 PM

I have submit myself to God, and you submit yourself to yourself which is created by God.
Is the One who create like the one who create not ?
so, my submission is more reasonable than yours, since I submit to the creator (God), and you for a created thing (slave).

go and find another god who has the same qualities as you, if you respect him he will deal with you as that who respect him not.

Allah is The Great, if you respect Him, you will find Him Merciful with you, but if you do not, then you are the loser, He will disgrace you in Hell.

the opposit of the Great is the disgraced, so do not oppose Allah.