GX

Interesting quote but I thought I should start a new thread on this because my response will change the topic. Karmic debt, negation of desire, and obligatory sexual abstinence other than for procreative purposes in order to achieve spiritual enlightenment and the concept of suffering are the 4 major flaws of eastern mysticism IMHO.
1) First of all “karmic debt”. A debt is something that must or should be repaid. You are not obligated to do anything by God, the universe or whatever you wish to call it. Karma is an innate desire to be better, to be bigger, to evolve and to grow, and to look at past events and experiences as a measure of that, not as a “debt” that needs to be repaid. Each lifetime is a joy of evolution and creation, not a race to become a master.
2) Negation of desire: Though this may be a valid path for some and possibly one eventual evolutionary step for all, it is not a “one size fits all” concept for all mankind. Each lifetime presents different opportunities for each soul. Perhaps each reincarnation isn’t necessarily about achieving spiritual mastery asap but about the enjoying the journey. This may include creation of music, art, scientific advances or whatever. Desire is the fuel of creation not something to be avoided. I really feel what the eastern masters were talking about is need and not desire.
3) Obligatory sexual abstinence – I really feel the Krishna followers got this wrong. Sexual abstinence to attain a higher level of spirituality is a choice and not a requirement.
4) Suffering – Desire and the cycle of birth and rebirth as the cause and effect of suffering may have been relevant at the time they were communicated but are not lessons to be perpetuated. Why would an evolving society wish to perpetuate the concept of suffering?

Though I find eastern mysticism highly evolved and enlightening in many respects, as with everything, it has its flaws. No religion, thought, practice or philosophy should remain constant but should evolve its thinking. Everything needs to be put under the light of personal scrutiny for the evolutionary benefit of the all.

The most highly evolved group spirituality IMHO is Native American Spirituality

Many followers of Native American spirituality, do not regard their spiritual beliefs and practices as a "religion" in the way in which many Christians do. Their beliefs and practices form a integral and seamless part of their very being. I can’t find any flaws. They believe we are all one, the earth and its resources belong to no one but everyone and are to be shared, whenever harvesting a crop or animal for food they pray to its spirit, they do not defile the earth as it provides you with life, they were not familiar with the concept of “untruth and lying”. They did not see suffering as a natural or desire and sex as something to be avoided. These are but some of many of their practices. The only possible criticism someone can level is some tribes use of psilocybin, peyote and marijuana in their spiritual ceremonies. But looking at their historical cultural practices, use of these entheogens was purely spiritual and not endemic or harmful.

Og

I don't think that negation of desire is synonymous with negation of happiness. The idea of freeing yourself from the bonds of fear/desire is about removing the strings that drive you like a puppet in life and opening you to true happiness of freedom that comes with self awareness.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

GX

I think you are confusing desire with need here Og. Desire and need are opposite ends of the same spectrum. Need being defined as an attachment to results i.e. as something you wish to be/do/have and if it is not a part of your now experience, it will affect you. Desire being defined as merely a passionate preference with no attachment to results.

"Those who seek so earnestly to overcome all earthly passions often work at it so hard that it might be said, this has become their passion. Often a person on what you call a spiritual path looks like he has renounced all earthly passion, all human desire. What he has done is understand it, see the illusion, and step aside from passions that do not serve him--all the while loving the illusion for what it has brought him: the chance to be wholly free."

The "negation of desire" is therefore not really a negation of desire but an elimination of attachment to results and for those who are "enlightened" in an eastern sense, they have merely have chosen spiritual passions over earthly ones. This may be a path to happiness for some but it is not necessary for freedom, happiness or self awareness. If all were to practice literal "negation of desire", the world would literally cease to exist and would be nothing more than a bunch of meditative zombies. How boring would that be? I believe that we are here for more than merely that. The world is our playground of creation and creation requires passion which requires desire. The trick is to let go of expectation and attachment to results.

"Passion is the love of turning being into action. It fuels the engine of creation. It changes concepts to experience. Passion is the fire that drives us to express who we really are. Never deny passion, for that is to deny who you are and who you truly want to be. The renunciate never denies passion--the renunciate simply denies attachment to results. Passion is a love of doing. Doing is being, experienced. Yet what is often created as part of doing? Expectation. To live your life without expectation--without the need for specific results--that is freedom...Renunciation is not a decision to deny action. Renunciation is a decision to deny a need for a particular result. "

Og

I don't think I'm confusing the terms.

"Live without expectation -- without the need for specific results" can not include desire. Desire IS positive expectation of a specific result for your actions just as fear is negative expectation. Desire is the opposite of fear and those together constitute the puppet strings that are keeping humans from being free.

I was not indicating that people should not act passionately (by this I mean with full awareness and consciousness of their current moment). Desire and fear are what cast your mind out of the present moment and keep you "asleep."

I certainly do not advocate everyone crossing their legs and meditating all day. I prefer the popular quotation of Joseph Campbell: "Follow your Bliss." That is to follow the path in life where you feel yourself completely unencumbered by any expectation. Where every moment you are being your true self and utterly at harmony with your world.

This necessarily requires a negation of desire (for approval, money, status, whatever) and fear (of failure, rejection, etc).

I'm going to stick by my original commentary about desire. At every moment, each and every one of us has all of the tools necessary to be truly happy. Desires and fears blind us to this.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

xexon

#1 Karma.

Karma is an accounting process. When you play the game on earth, you play by the rules until you can see beyond them. Each action, each desire has a karmic price tag attached to it. You're a young soul, and you've been given an open ended charge account while here. Most people are far in over their heads before they figure out how to play the game. So when realization comes, there is much work to do to pay down the debtload so that life has less friction. Because you can see better as an advanced soul, you can navigate better as well.

The rules of this world state that you can't leave the game until you are debt free. Just try.

Karma has no bias. It sees everything and keeps count of the positive and negative aspects you accumulate while here. When you learn how this process works, you can structure your life to surf it rather than get washed over by it. Once headway is made in balancing the account, life begins to take on a different flavor. Spiritual progress is more rapid. Because your attention is now focused more inwardly, worldly things begin to lose their attraction, which leads to....

#2 Negation of desire.

Desire does not die because you muscle it by belief in one thing or another, but by the simple fact that you lose interest in the things that once attracted you. You have a new fascination in your life now. A door that opens inwardly.

#3 Celibacy. Once again, it can be forced by learned behavior but achieves only an imitation of the truth. Natural celibacy occurs by the reason listed in #2. Imitation is the path of religion.

#4 Suffering. Part of the show here. It's one of your teachers. The idea is for you to move forward on the gameboard. Should you grow lazy or distracted, pain and suffering remind you of the path ahead. You have to work to exit this game.

And when you exit the checkout line at the end of it, you're going to have a pretty big smile. Because you got your money's worth.



x

__________________
Destroyer of Worlds

GX

I think you are Og. Desire isnt a positive expectation for a specific result. It is merely a preferential statement for a specific course of action with no results involved positive or negative i.e. "I will do this specific thing" not "I will do this specific thing and expect money". You are combining 2 distinct concepts here. I desire to pick up a guitar and play. I desire to pick up this book on neuro biology read. There is no expectation involved until one puts it there i.e. I desire to play guitar like Jimi Hendrix.

Bliss is merely a now sense of joy or contentment, not a course of action. Nothing more nothing less. "Follow your bliss" doesnt make sense, its either there or it isnt and thus impossible to "follow". Therefore "following your bliss" to me means that bliss is not there now and that there is some couse of action you need to do to find it which I feel is a backward way of approaching it. Putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. I think a better statement is to "be bliss". To "be bliss" you drop your needs and expectations at which point your desires aka preferred courses of action become clear and unencumbered by said expectations and needs. Finally your desires are fueled to action by passion.

GX

I am well aware of the eastern interpretation of karma. How are you so sure these are the "rules of the world"? Where did you get that from? Why would love hold you accountable? Doesnt it just make sense for love to provide awareness and a chance for correction?

Desire is merely a preference for a course of action even for the action that opens that inward door.

Natural Celibacy? Thats an oxymoron. Celibacy is choice. The only one possible valid reason to choose celibacy for spiritual reasons is if you are unable to engage all 7 chakra centers when experiencing sex or sexual desire. If you solely come from the root chakra alone you are by far missing the most glorious part of the experience. In the case of sexual desire this may also cause ones focus in other areas to be distracted. Im sure all of you guys heard of that expression, thinking with your dick. If you wish to become spiritual and you are constantly thinking sexual out of your root chakra alone, you may wish to temporarily choose celibacy in order to engage your higher spiritual chakras, but if you got it going in all 7 centers as described above, celibacy isnt necessary. On the contrary, it would be a forced denial in the worst form!

Yes, but it is not necessary for an opposite condition to exist right next to you in order to provide a contextual filed within which the reality you choose may be experienced. The distance between contrasts is irrelevant. The entire universe provides a contextual field within which all contrasting elements exist, and all experiences are thus made possible. That is the purpose of the universe. That is its function. All beings in the universe have experienced everything. If not in this lifetime, then in the last. You do not have to experience suffering again if you dont want to. You need to merely remember it--know that it exists--in order to invoke the universal law of relativity.