Do I really want to know the truth - Page 4

Abel · 05-06-2008, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StuckInThe90s

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

BTW, we have eyewitness accounts that this is a true message. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Jude, James, and Peter all left us record. If you choose not to believe the evidence, so be it. You will live forever with the results of your choice.

That's funny. Really funny. Why do you people place so much credibility within the Bible just because "it's what it says"? Who's to say the Torah is any less credible than the Bible? Or the Koran for that matter? There are records from Buddhist monks from the time of Jesus that vouch for his historical existence, not years after where 8th hand reports come in, as well as a few other accounts. But these accounts never mention any "miraculous powers" that he displayed. Those stories are solely found in the Bible. As I said, don't knock another faith's holy book, those other religions could be just as valid as yours, don't be blind and ignorant. What jimmy said to buzz was true-

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy77611

You only believe it because someone told you, and you read about it in an ancient book of mythology. If you had grown up in a muslim country, you'd feel the same way about allah, and probably even just as sure about that as you are about christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Og

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

This is merely your opinion. Opinions are like feet -- Most people have a couple of them, and they all stink. At least I have something I believe in. I will always use the Bible to support my statements. You use...what?

Why is it a virtue to have something you believe in without evidence? Why do you preface it by "at least" indicating it is some sort of basic need?

And the bible does not support your statements. It merely contains statements that, like your own, have no evidentiary support behind them. Saying things twice doesn't make them any more correct.

I do have evidence. You would have the evidence also if you would take God at His word. John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak..." If you are not willing to accept the truth found in God's Word, you are basically calling God a liar. After insulting God, do you really expect Him to make Himself known to you in some special way? Don't flatter yourself. God is not a respector of persons. He makes the same offer to you that He made to me, and everyone else.

How would you know if the Bible supported my beliefs or not? You can't even comprehend the Bible: 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You seem to believe that your worldly intelligence makes you an expert on everything. The same principle applies to you also:Your repeated denial of the Bible does not make it so. Let's make a deal. You don't pretend to be a theologian, and I won't pretend to be a scientist.

jimmy77611 · 05-06-2008, 10:58 AM

So to be a theologian is to not be a scientist? Maybe because the bible doen't line up with a lot of known, proven science.

I have the same understanding of the bible now as I did when I too had the "holy ghost" in me to "open up it's understanding to me", just like you claim.

I began to use my brain and realized that most of it was false. If you did the same, and rationally thought about a lot of the things in the bible, there's no way you could come to any other conclusion than I. It is what it is.

My worldy intelligence doesn't make me an expert on everything. I am an expert on things that I am an expert on, and don't claim that I am an expert on things that I am not. You however claim to be an expert and have absolute knowledge of something that is unprovable, that exists in the "supernatural" realm.

Do you have any proof of this realm? And no more quotes from the highly flawed and contradiction wridden bible, I mean REAL proof.

Abel · 05-06-2008, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy77611

So to be a theologian is to not be a scientist? Maybe because the bible doen't line up with a lot of known, proven science.

I have the same understanding of the bible now as I did when I too had the "holy ghost" in me to "open up it's understanding to me", just like you claim.

I began to use my brain and realized that most of it was false. If you did the same, and rationally thought about a lot of the things in the bible, there's no way you could come to any other conclusion than I. It is what it is.

My worldy intelligence doesn't make me an expert on everything. I am an expert on things that I am an expert on, and don't claim that I am an expert on things that I am not. You however claim to be an expert and have absolute knowledge of something that is unprovable, that exists in the "supernatural" realm.

Do you have any proof of this realm? And no more quotes from the highly flawed and contradiction wridden bible, I mean REAL proof.

Jimmy
If you truely had the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, He would teach you the truth, and you would not be asking me. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer after faith in Christ: Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

It is the Holy Spirit that seals us in Christ. Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Therefore, if you ever had the Holy Spirit in you, He's still there. Ask Him to teach you.

It is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. I have shown you where and how to have this proof. If you reject this, it's not my fault. Now, show me proof that the Bible is flawed.

BTW, the above post was not directed towards you.

AB517 · 05-06-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy77611

So to be a theologian is to not be a scientist? Maybe because the bible doen't line up with a lot of known, proven science.

I have the same understanding of the bible now as I did when I too had the "holy ghost" in me to "open up it's understanding to me", just like you claim.

I began to use my brain and realized that most of it was false. If you did the same, and rationally thought about a lot of the things in the bible, there's no way you could come to any other conclusion than I. It is what it is.

My worldy intelligence doesn't make me an expert on everything. I am an expert on things that I am an expert on, and don't claim that I am an expert on things that I am not. You however claim to be an expert and have absolute knowledge of something that is unprovable, that exists in the "supernatural" realm.

Do you have any proof of this realm? And no more quotes from the highly flawed and contradiction wridden bible, I mean REAL proof.

Jimmy
If you truely had the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, He would teach you the truth, and you would not be asking me. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer after faith in Christ: Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

It is the Holy Spirit that seals us in Christ. Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Therefore, if you ever had the Holy Spirit in you, He's still there. Ask Him to teach you.

It is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. I have shown you where and how to have this proof. If you reject this, it's not my fault. Now, show me proof that the Bible is flawed.

BTW, the above post was not directed towards you.

Abel,
Is it possible for man to have a complete and final description of God?

jimmy77611 · 05-06-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy77611

So to be a theologian is to not be a scientist? Maybe because the bible doen't line up with a lot of known, proven science.

I have the same understanding of the bible now as I did when I too had the "holy ghost" in me to "open up it's understanding to me", just like you claim.

I began to use my brain and realized that most of it was false. If you did the same, and rationally thought about a lot of the things in the bible, there's no way you could come to any other conclusion than I. It is what it is.

My worldy intelligence doesn't make me an expert on everything. I am an expert on things that I am an expert on, and don't claim that I am an expert on things that I am not. You however claim to be an expert and have absolute knowledge of something that is unprovable, that exists in the "supernatural" realm.

Do you have any proof of this realm? And no more quotes from the highly flawed and contradiction wridden bible, I mean REAL proof.

Jimmy
If you truely had the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, He would teach you the truth, and you would not be asking me. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer after faith in Christ: Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

It is the Holy Spirit that seals us in Christ. Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Therefore, if you ever had the Holy Spirit in you, He's still there. Ask Him to teach you.

It is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. I have shown you where and how to have this proof. If you reject this, it's not my fault. Now, show me proof that the Bible is flawed.

BTW, the above post was not directed towards you.

Of course you would say that I didn't have the holy spirit in the first place. That is the typical christian answer! You don't know how commited my heart was to god. I was very much a strong christian, and an evangelist.

There are lots of mistakes in the bible. Beginning with the contradicting creation accounts. To the rediculous notion of noahs ark & the flood being true. The fact that the whole entire dinosaur era is missing from the supposed history of the planet. Lot and lots and lots more.

Need I rip the bible to shreds for you? You'll probably run the risk of losing faith.

Like I said, if you actually thought about this stuff logically, you'd see it too.

Abel · 05-06-2008, 12:36 PM

Jimmy
I have no idea whether you received the Holy Spirit or not. I am not judging your salvation. I will say this with confidence, if you are saved, and if you have backslidden on God, He will chatise you as a good Father will. Hebrews 12:7 "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"

I will also say that if God is not chastising you, then buddy, you never were saved: Hebrews 12:8 "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

If you are referring in the supposed contradiction between Gen.1 and Gen.2, even the elementary Bible student knows that chapter 2 is a detailed account of chapter 1. No contradiction.

Greater men than you have tried to disprove the Bible and have failed, but hey, knock yourself out if you think you can.

jimmy77611 · 05-06-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

Jimmy
I have no idea whether you received the Holy Spirit or not. I am not judging your salvation. I will say this with confidence, if you are saved, and if you have backslidden on God, He will chatise you as a good Father will. Hebrews 12:7 "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"

I will also say that if God is not chastising you, then buddy, you never were saved: Hebrews 12:8 "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

If you are referring in the supposed contradiction between Gen.1 and Gen.2, even the elementary Bible student knows that chapter 2 is a detailed account of chapter 1. No contradiction.

Greater men than you have tried to disprove the Bible and have failed, but hey, knock yourself out if you think you can.

So where is the dinosaur era mentioned in the bible?

Let's look at the order of creation mentioned in genesis.

The first:

Genesis 1:25-27

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image

So god created the animals, thought it good, and THEN decided to create man.

The second:

Genesis 2:18-19

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

God created man, decided that it was not good for man to be alone, so he created the animals.

How is this just a detailed explanation of the first?

Either god created man then the animals, or the animals then man. If one is true then one has to be false.

You might want to rethink what you teach the elementary bible students, because one is definitley a dirrerent account than the other! If you can't see it, then you are blinded from knowledge by your faith.

BTW, I appreciate the bastard comment, but of course you didn't say it "god" did. haha.

Abel · 05-06-2008, 01:46 PM

Ok Jimmy here you go:
Dinosaurs are mentioned in the book of Job, which by the way is believed to be the oldest book in the Bible. You will find descriptions of an animal called a "Behemoth" in Job 40:15-24. You will also read of an aquatic beast called a "Leviathan" in Job 41:1-10. Neither of these creatures fit the description of any living animals today. They are extint dinosaurs.

In Jewish writing, order is presented in accordance to importance rather than in time sequence. Here's an example: Gen.2:8 tells of God planting a garden then placing man in it. Verses 9-15 then go back and explain how God created it and placed man there. This account is out of order time-wise, but this is Jewish writing. Another example of this is found in John 19:34 where Jesus' side is pierced. Blood is mentioned first, however if His heart was pierced, pericardium fluid would have preceded the blood. Blood being more important is mentioned first.

Gen.2:18 states that man needed a companion. Verse 19 goes back to the creation of animals, and Adam naming them to emphasize the fact that none of these were adaquate for Adam. Now add verse 20 and you will see: Genesis 2:18-20 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

A simple understanding of ancient Jewish writing eliminates your supposed contradiction.

Abel · 05-06-2008, 02:47 PM

AB
I believe we do have a complete and final description of God. That would be in the person of Jesus: Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,..." Also John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

Our problem is that with our minute, finate mind we can't fully understand all there is concerning God: Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Also: Romans 11:33 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

Jesus' disciples walked with Him for over three years, spent intimate time with Him, witnessed His miracles, yet they could not understand Him completely. God has, however, allowed us to comprehend enough about Him for us to make an informed decision.

jimmy77611 · 05-06-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

Ok Jimmy here you go:
Dinosaurs are mentioned in the book of Job, which by the way is believed to be the oldest book in the Bible. You will find descriptions of an animal called a "Behemoth" in Job 40:15-24. You will also read of an aquatic beast called a "Leviathan" in Job 41:1-10. Neither of these creatures fit the description of any living animals today. They are extint dinosaurs.

In Jewish writing, order is presented in accordance to importance rather than in time sequence. Here's an example: Gen.2:8 tells of God planting a garden then placing man in it. Verses 9-15 then go back and explain how God created it and placed man there. This account is out of order time-wise, but this is Jewish writing. Another example of this is found in John 19:34 where Jesus' side is pierced. Blood is mentioned first, however if His heart was pierced, pericardium fluid would have preceded the blood. Blood being more important is mentioned first.

Gen.2:18 states that man needed a companion. Verse 19 goes back to the creation of animals, and Adam naming them to emphasize the fact that none of these were adaquate for Adam. Now add verse 20 and you will see: Genesis 2:18-20 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

A simple understanding of ancient Jewish writing eliminates your supposed contradiction.

Once again you offer no REAL answers. The accounts differ, and you are blinded to the fact. You have obviously chosen to throw logic out the window.

I knew you would bring up Job & Behemoth.

Would you no agree that there were 1000's of species of dinosaurs, many of which would have been predators to the humans alive at the time if they were around? The fossil record supports this. The bible fails to mention this period of history in it's history of the earth.

You point out two instances in the bible about animals that may or may not even be dinosaurs.

All of mythology is chocked full of such creatures.

Dinosaurs=fact

behemoth & leviathon=myth

bible=not the true history of the earth

You have no evidence to the contrary.