Religion encourages ignorance? - Page 6

AB517 · 04-11-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodou1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

hmm...and mocking deep felt beliefs is preferable to my up front honesty? I detect a hint of hypocrisy... I could have approached this whole exchange of ideas in a more deliberate, nuanced way. Hiding the core of my beliefs and motivation for writing, only to reveal them later to the outrage that I am currently subjected to, or just put it out there now so we can move on.

Also the accusation that I'm just going to badger you with Scripture is a little overstated. yes I did include one reference, not to prove a point in my arguement, but rather to illustrate it. I am attempting to deal with ideas, and arguments, using philosophy and experience. I think that there will be times I use Scripture to defend my position because it makes up a part of my experience.

As for the whole Bible "it has been picked over and changed to suit the purpose of the early Popes"

It shows you have bought into a common perception that is not what the scholarship of today would uphold. You can argue some other things about the validity of the books in the canon, but to argue that what we have has been changed is a challenge that has been given up long ago. Consult Bruce Metzger, generally recognized as the authority on Textual Criticism (a former Prof at Princeton University)

John76

The whole kid thing makes some sense. yeah I wish my kid would clean his room (and mine while he is at it.) But I think part of the issue is we as parents guide our children, we teach them to clean their rooms. We help them see good versus evil. without any God, I don't think we would understand that reality. (This can be a whole different thread if we want to go the whole morality in a completely materialist worldview thing)

So again if my Son is cleaning his room, but I really want him and expect him to be doing his homework I'm not gonna be pleased at all. In the same way I think God communicated his plan to us. and we generally try to do what we want to do or think is best. We'd rather do our own thing than listen to what anyone has to tell us, be they our parents or creator.

debdodd. THanks for dealing with the arguements, and not just taking cheap shots at my beleifs. Also with regard to shouting I hope you see two parts to my previous post.

1) the upfront honesty that you felt was shouting. I honestly did it to be transparent. To put my intentions and motivation out there from the beginning. Seeing as I came across arrogantly and loudly, I apologize.

2) I was trying to put together a reasoned explanation of the way I see the world, how do I make sense of the fact that "good" people do "bad" things, how are we so like each other and yet some of us get so screwed up we cause a lot of pain to a lot of people and others only cause a little bit of pain to a few people.

I think Christianity provides the best solution to why that is and what can be (or has been) done about it

Finally, I can't force you to believe anything. I could force you maybe to say something or admit something, but I wouldn't because you only really believe what you will believe. Jesus said that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. (1 John 1:9) (Again only an illustration of the point) If I try to force you to anything it won't accomplish anything so rather than force, I must reason with you all. So please, continue to reason with me. And I will seek to give you the same respect.

Thanks

Many in the same manner see Christianity/other religions as the cause of the hurt and nothing near the solution.

I myself am considered an for existing in the eyes of Christianity, and I must say that is the type of 'Christian love' that comes to my mind.

Hitler was a devout catholic and used his religion to whip a nation into a frenzy.

Fred Phelps is another monster that springs to mind when I think about what's at the core of religion.

The bible encourages slaves to follow their master as their master follows God, and even to take pride in it. If we are all God's children then how is it okay in anyone's mind for some to enslave others?

If there truly is a benevolent god I refuse to believe he could be entangled with such archaic and horrible things. People who pick and choose the light and fluffy parts of the bible while ignoring the horrid areas and still calling themselves christians are only fooling themselves.

You pointed out that all of us non-believers will be going to hell. While I do believe that in your own way you mean well by trying to 'save' us, this is a scare tactic. Anyone would be a fool not to ponder the fate of their immortal soul, but they would be a bigger fool to compromise that soul out of fear.

Religion has stopped at least the same amount as it started.
It helps more than it hurts.

Don't blame religion for what we do to each other.
Your hate for religion is equal to their hate for other men.
It is just hate.
The world is full of it.

My fellow Christians do not consider you an abomination in the eyes of Christ.
Some of my fellow men mite, we are working on that.

**debdodd** · 04-11-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Religion has stopped at least the same amount as it started.* It helps more than it hurts.Don't blame religion for what we do to each other.Your hate for religion is equal to their hate for other men.It is just hate.* The world is full of it.My fellow Christians do not consider you an abomination in the eyes of Christ.Some of my fellow men mite, we are working on that.

Not to be disagreeable but to disagree ...... I have to blame religion and not hate in some instances .... such is the case with splinter groups of the Mormon church .. you don't think they are marrying off these girls barely at the onset of puberty out of hate do you? I don't believe that agnostics hate religion as much as it disgusts us that people follow such teaching blindly. I have plenty of friends and all my relatives who believe .... the ones know I am agnostic are often outraged (as in the case of my parents) my sister prays and "pep" talks to me on salvation .... what I mostly have found is that many find my disbelief unpalatable and try to open my mind .... never listen to why I believe as I do ..... allow me to believe what I want to believe it is my (alleged) eternal soul ...... so I wish that believers would stop trying to spread the word to me and stop seeing us as the problem ....

Christians, Muslims, etc need to clean up there own backyards before they work on agnostics .....

AB517 · 04-11-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Religion has stopped at least the same amount as it started.* It helps more than it hurts.Don't blame religion for what we do to each other.Your hate for religion is equal to their hate for other men.It is just hate.* The world is full of it.My fellow Christians do not consider you an abomination in the eyes of Christ.Some of my fellow men mite, we are working on that.

Not to be disagreeable but to disagree ...... I have to blame religion and not hate in some instances .... such is the case with splinter groups of the Mormon church .. you don't think they are marrying off these girls barely at the onset of puberty out of hate do you? I don't believe that agnostics hate religion as much as it disgusts us that people follow such teaching blindly. I have plenty of friends and all my relatives who believe .... the ones know I am agnostic are often outraged (as in the case of my parents) my sister prays and "pep" talks to me on salvation .... what I mostly have found is that many find my disbelief unpalatable and try to open my mind .... never listen to why I believe as I do ..... allow me to believe what I want to believe it is my (alleged) eternal soul ...... so I wish that believers would stop trying to spread the word to me and stop seeing us as the problem ....

Christians, Muslims, etc need to clean up there own backyards before they work on agnostics .....

Yes,
I agree with you here.
We need to see that people are the problem and the solution.

I live in the north east, we blame liberals. No matter what religion they are.

romansh · 04-11-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

I live in the north east, we blame liberals. No matter what religion they are.

Reminds of Churchill comparing America's politics with Britain's
can't find the exact quote but words to the effect...

In the US there is the Republican party which is conservative, the Democrats they are conservative too. Whereas in in Britain the Labour party is socialist and the Conservative party is socialist as well.

Jodou1 · 04-12-2008, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodou1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

hmm...and mocking deep felt beliefs is preferable to my up front honesty? I detect a hint of hypocrisy... I could have approached this whole exchange of ideas in a more deliberate, nuanced way. Hiding the core of my beliefs and motivation for writing, only to reveal them later to the outrage that I am currently subjected to, or just put it out there now so we can move on.

Also the accusation that I'm just going to badger you with Scripture is a little overstated. yes I did include one reference, not to prove a point in my arguement, but rather to illustrate it. I am attempting to deal with ideas, and arguments, using philosophy and experience. I think that there will be times I use Scripture to defend my position because it makes up a part of my experience.

As for the whole Bible "it has been picked over and changed to suit the purpose of the early Popes"

It shows you have bought into a common perception that is not what the scholarship of today would uphold. You can argue some other things about the validity of the books in the canon, but to argue that what we have has been changed is a challenge that has been given up long ago. Consult Bruce Metzger, generally recognized as the authority on Textual Criticism (a former Prof at Princeton University)

John76

The whole kid thing makes some sense. yeah I wish my kid would clean his room (and mine while he is at it.) But I think part of the issue is we as parents guide our children, we teach them to clean their rooms. We help them see good versus evil. without any God, I don't think we would understand that reality. (This can be a whole different thread if we want to go the whole morality in a completely materialist worldview thing)

So again if my Son is cleaning his room, but I really want him and expect him to be doing his homework I'm not gonna be pleased at all. In the same way I think God communicated his plan to us. and we generally try to do what we want to do or think is best. We'd rather do our own thing than listen to what anyone has to tell us, be they our parents or creator.

debdodd. THanks for dealing with the arguements, and not just taking cheap shots at my beleifs. Also with regard to shouting I hope you see two parts to my previous post.

1) the upfront honesty that you felt was shouting. I honestly did it to be transparent. To put my intentions and motivation out there from the beginning. Seeing as I came across arrogantly and loudly, I apologize.

2) I was trying to put together a reasoned explanation of the way I see the world, how do I make sense of the fact that "good" people do "bad" things, how are we so like each other and yet some of us get so screwed up we cause a lot of pain to a lot of people and others only cause a little bit of pain to a few people.

I think Christianity provides the best solution to why that is and what can be (or has been) done about it

Finally, I can't force you to believe anything. I could force you maybe to say something or admit something, but I wouldn't because you only really believe what you will believe. Jesus said that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. (1 John 1:9) (Again only an illustration of the point) If I try to force you to anything it won't accomplish anything so rather than force, I must reason with you all. So please, continue to reason with me. And I will seek to give you the same respect.

Thanks

Many in the same manner see Christianity/other religions as the cause of the hurt and nothing near the solution.

I myself am considered an for existing in the eyes of Christianity, and I must say that is the type of 'Christian love' that comes to my mind.

Hitler was a devout catholic and used his religion to whip a nation into a frenzy.

Fred Phelps is another monster that springs to mind when I think about what's at the core of religion.

The bible encourages slaves to follow their master as their master follows God, and even to take pride in it. If we are all God's children then how is it okay in anyone's mind for some to enslave others?

If there truly is a benevolent god I refuse to believe he could be entangled with such archaic and horrible things. People who pick and choose the light and fluffy parts of the bible while ignoring the horrid areas and still calling themselves christians are only fooling themselves.

You pointed out that all of us non-believers will be going to hell. While I do believe that in your own way you mean well by trying to 'save' us, this is a scare tactic. Anyone would be a fool not to ponder the fate of their immortal soul, but they would be a bigger fool to compromise that soul out of fear.

Religion has stopped at least the same amount as it started.
It helps more than it hurts.

Don't blame religion for what we do to each other.
Your hate for religion is equal to their hate for other men.
It is just hate.
The world is full of it.

My fellow Christians do not consider you an abomination in the eyes of Christ.
Some of my fellow men mite, we are working on that.

You could say I have a hate for hate, and feel that an uncanny amount is derived from religious beliefs. Perhaps you're right and even if no religion ever existed people would still find excuses for hating each other. I personally wouldn't mind seeing if that were the case, but I doubt that'll happen in my lifetime.

I won't deny my discontent for religion which you pointed out. It is a flaw that I acknowledge and hope to some day be at peace with. However when I read something like. . .This it is hard for me to even want to seperate the good areas of religion from the bad.

Lastly I just want to say that even though I acknowledge the distaste I have, I wouldn't say it's anywhere near equal to theirs. I've murdered 0 people in my lifetime.

AB517 · 04-12-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodou1

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodou1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

hmm...and mocking deep felt beliefs is preferable to my up front honesty? I detect a hint of hypocrisy... I could have approached this whole exchange of ideas in a more deliberate, nuanced way. Hiding the core of my beliefs and motivation for writing, only to reveal them later to the outrage that I am currently subjected to, or just put it out there now so we can move on.

Also the accusation that I'm just going to badger you with Scripture is a little overstated. yes I did include one reference, not to prove a point in my arguement, but rather to illustrate it. I am attempting to deal with ideas, and arguments, using philosophy and experience. I think that there will be times I use Scripture to defend my position because it makes up a part of my experience.

As for the whole Bible "it has been picked over and changed to suit the purpose of the early Popes"

It shows you have bought into a common perception that is not what the scholarship of today would uphold. You can argue some other things about the validity of the books in the canon, but to argue that what we have has been changed is a challenge that has been given up long ago. Consult Bruce Metzger, generally recognized as the authority on Textual Criticism (a former Prof at Princeton University)

John76

The whole kid thing makes some sense. yeah I wish my kid would clean his room (and mine while he is at it.) But I think part of the issue is we as parents guide our children, we teach them to clean their rooms. We help them see good versus evil. without any God, I don't think we would understand that reality. (This can be a whole different thread if we want to go the whole morality in a completely materialist worldview thing)

So again if my Son is cleaning his room, but I really want him and expect him to be doing his homework I'm not gonna be pleased at all. In the same way I think God communicated his plan to us. and we generally try to do what we want to do or think is best. We'd rather do our own thing than listen to what anyone has to tell us, be they our parents or creator.

debdodd. THanks for dealing with the arguements, and not just taking cheap shots at my beleifs. Also with regard to shouting I hope you see two parts to my previous post.

1) the upfront honesty that you felt was shouting. I honestly did it to be transparent. To put my intentions and motivation out there from the beginning. Seeing as I came across arrogantly and loudly, I apologize.

2) I was trying to put together a reasoned explanation of the way I see the world, how do I make sense of the fact that "good" people do "bad" things, how are we so like each other and yet some of us get so screwed up we cause a lot of pain to a lot of people and others only cause a little bit of pain to a few people.

I think Christianity provides the best solution to why that is and what can be (or has been) done about it

Finally, I can't force you to believe anything. I could force you maybe to say something or admit something, but I wouldn't because you only really believe what you will believe. Jesus said that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. (1 John 1:9) (Again only an illustration of the point) If I try to force you to anything it won't accomplish anything so rather than force, I must reason with you all. So please, continue to reason with me. And I will seek to give you the same respect.

Thanks

Many in the same manner see Christianity/other religions as the cause of the hurt and nothing near the solution.

I myself am considered an for existing in the eyes of Christianity, and I must say that is the type of 'Christian love' that comes to my mind.

Hitler was a devout catholic and used his religion to whip a nation into a frenzy.

Fred Phelps is another monster that springs to mind when I think about what's at the core of religion.

The bible encourages slaves to follow their master as their master follows God, and even to take pride in it. If we are all God's children then how is it okay in anyone's mind for some to enslave others?

If there truly is a benevolent god I refuse to believe he could be entangled with such archaic and horrible things. People who pick and choose the light and fluffy parts of the bible while ignoring the horrid areas and still calling themselves christians are only fooling themselves.

You pointed out that all of us non-believers will be going to hell. While I do believe that in your own way you mean well by trying to 'save' us, this is a scare tactic. Anyone would be a fool not to ponder the fate of their immortal soul, but they would be a bigger fool to compromise that soul out of fear.

Religion has stopped at least the same amount as it started.
It helps more than it hurts.

Don't blame religion for what we do to each other.
Your hate for religion is equal to their hate for other men.
It is just hate.
The world is full of it.

My fellow Christians do not consider you an abomination in the eyes of Christ.
Some of my fellow men mite, we are working on that.

You could say I have a hate for hate, and feel that an uncanny amount is derived from religious beliefs. Perhaps you're right and even if no religion ever existed people would still find excuses for hating each other. I personally wouldn't mind seeing if that were the case, but I doubt that'll happen in my lifetime.

I won't deny my discontent for religion which you pointed out. It is a flaw that I acknowledge and hope to some day be at peace with. However when I read something like. . .This it is hard for me to even want to seperate the good areas of religion from the bad.

Lastly I just want to say that even though I acknowledge the distaste I have, I wouldn't say it's anywhere near equal to theirs. I've murdered 0 people in my lifetime.

My murder tally = 0 also.

I would love to see what happens without religion also. The only thing that comes close is the start of man. There were no men and no religion. Humans started up and spirituality started up. What this means, I don’t know. Then man took over and decided he knew best and a religion sprang up.

Believe me, I would like to put some preachers and priest in jail. Some of these men are pure ego and/or sick people.

I just blame people, not religion.
I am with you on the acceptance thing. I am working on a bitterness thing I got going on in my life. I “hate” the person though, not what religion or job they hold. It is like putting a gun in jail because it killed someone.

Jodou1 · 04-13-2008, 02:35 AM

Quote:

My murder tally = 0 also.

I would love to see what happens without religion also. The only thing that comes close is the start of man. There were no men and no religion. Humans started up and spirituality started up. What this means, I don’t know. Then man took over and decided he knew best and a religion sprang up.

Believe me, I would like to put some preachers and priest in jail. Some of these men are pure ego and/or sick people.

I just blame people, not religion.
I am with you on the acceptance thing. I am working on a bitterness thing I got going on in my life. I “hate” the person though, not what religion or job they hold. It is like putting a gun in jail because it killed someone.

I agree with just about all of that, and I do know many good religious people. It just seems that a lot of people do horrible things because of religion. I am sure a vast amount of them do horrible things for their own reasons and use religion to justify it, but undoubtedly many also do it because they feel it necessary to be in harmony with their religious beliefs.

My reference to a murder tally was towards a religious standpoint and not a personal one. Religion has claimed far more lives as a 'cause' than anything I can think of.

Composer · 04-14-2008, 02:50 AM

Any alleged Bible based Religion that perpetrates violence now in defense of themselves or others is not a Bible Based Religion but a fraud.

Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: {love as: or, loving to the} 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (1 Pet. 3:8 - 9) KJV

There is only one group not guilty of breaking Christ's God given commandments in this regard - The Christ Adelphians (& those like them)

Preacherman · 04-21-2008, 04:29 PM

Okay I've been away for a while and can only respond to a few things.

Ummm the interesting thing about Job is a professor of mine in Seminary Dennis Magary takes John's interpretation, whereas most take one more like Abel's I'm agnostic on the issue (hehe)

basically he says that more than trying to fit God into his theology He'd rather read the text as a self expression of God, and regardless of whether He allowed Satan to harm Job or not, God is still responsible, especially if he already knows the outcome, why take the time and inflict the pain on Job just to prove it to Satan? who cares what Satan knows or believes.

I think part of this is to show that God trusts us to be faithful. he wants us to trust him. He wants us to become mature enough that we will trust and be good and selfless even when things are hard for us. He wants us to be like Jesus, able to forgive while on the cross, able to comfort from the depths of personal pain. The reality is even Job fails...This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil Job 1:2 (no one else has these 4 positive descriptions applied to them) He is the best person ever that wasn't God and yet he fails the testing of the Lord.
And yet God hopes in us. wants us to be faithful, forgives when we fail. Because only he is truly selfless.

Unlike me, unlike you.

But there will come a time when God destroys sin, Satan and all the pain and hurt. there will be a time when justice comes and God completes the work he began in his people. There will be a reign in heaven where we have no more tears, no more evil, new creations free from sin. I can't wait.

there was something about God being the authority and not having the right to judge those who sin, especially if he knew they were going to sin. Read Romans especially chapter 9. It should make you very angry. It has made me very angry many times. And yet I realize that the reality of sin and redemption make such profound sense to me that all I can do is trust in the one who made me.

john76 · 04-21-2008, 05:28 PM

Hey again Preacher - glad you're back. Obviously, I agree with your former teacher. I really find it hard to believe that, even in the present context, God knew what Job was going to do and say. God didn't even know what He was going to do. I'll repeat the passage I quoted: [Job 2,3 "thou movedst Me against him to destroy him without cause."] "Movedst" clearly means that Satan persuaded God to do something that He didn't already anticipate that he was going to do. If God didn't have knowledge of his own course, why would it make sense to say that He had knowledge of Job's course? The whole book makes no sense if God already knew how Job would react; John