Religion encourages ignorance? - Page 5

Astreja · 04-10-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

Do people in positions of authority like to have their decisions questioned? Especially if the one in authority knows for certain they are right? God feels the very same way...

...But I'm not God. I have neither His experience or knowledge.

Putting aside for the moment the paradox of how you can know your god's feelings without having its experience or knowledge...

...Wouldn't an omniscient being be able to understand why the poor, suffering mortal was asking all these questions, and respond in a manner less harsh than a rebuke?

Abel · 04-10-2008, 05:00 AM

Og,
By posting a response, you have proven that those two statements that I made were true. I "knew" you were going to post a response, yet you still had the option not to. Now, my knowledge is extremely limited and does not even compare to that of God's. If I can show the relationship between knowledge and free will I don't see why you find it so hard to believe God is able to do the same.

shadowind,
Your observation is one that has been the cause of controversy for centries in the Christian community. It is called the doctrine of Predestination. Some see God as having created some for Heaven and others for Hell. I'll give you my take on this. God does not want any to be seperated from Him in a place called Hell. That is why Jesus came to the earth. So that all would have a way to Heaven through His finished work. It is a choice every person has to make on his/her own.This is a tough one I'll admitt. I just have to accept that there are things I don't understand, and focus on the things I do.

Astreja
I didn't mean to sound as if I knew all of God's feelings. My statement was based on what I have learned about Him from the Bible. However, you hit the nail on the head. God does know our suffering. He understands completely because as Jesus, He, Himself suffered cold, hunger, mistreatment, etc... There is nothing we go through that Jesus didn't experience. That is why He can have compassion on us. A verbal rebuke like the one God gave Job is mild.

I hope I answered all your questions.

john76 · 04-10-2008, 08:21 AM

Hi Abel. I completely disagree with your reading of the story. The initial part of your response to me reads: "First, yes God does know our past, present, and future. However, you have gotten some of the facts about the story of Job wrong. Satan did not get God to test Job. Satan received permission from God so that he could test Job himself. Next, Job did not fail the test." I completely disagree. If you read the text, God clearly says Himself that Satan convinced Him to test Job: [Job 2,3 "thou movedst Me against him to destroy him without cause."] Further, you are wrong about what the test is and the fact, as I said, that Job does in fact fail it. The test Satan comes up with is that Job will become a sinner if all his blessings are taken away from him. Becoming a sinner in this case means Job declaring that he is righteous and undeserving of the punishment of God (thereby transgressing the judgement of God). This is exactly what Job does: ["Job 32, 1-2 “So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes … he justified himself rather than God.”] The whole story is predicated on the idea that God initially is convinced that Job will not sin when tested, and thus when it turns out that God was wrong, He therefore had absolutely no idea what Job's future thoughts or actions would be. This is why He gets angry and rebukes him at Job 38.

Abel · 04-10-2008, 08:52 AM

Hey John
I believe Satan, not God, afflicted Job: Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Now look at the test itself: Job 1:9-11 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Job 2:4-5 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job never claimed to be without sin. He was already a sinner. We all sin and Job admitted this himself: Job 13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Job did indeed pass the test:Job 2:10... In all this did not Job sin with his lips. God never blesses people for their sins, yet, God blessed Job: Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:

When God said He moved against Job to destroy him without cause, I believe the translation in our modern English would be: "You moved Me to allow Job to be destroyed without cause."

john76 · 04-10-2008, 10:16 AM

Hey Abel. I really don't think the text reflects your interpretation. We'll agree to disagree here. Good exchange, though; John

Abel · 04-10-2008, 10:28 AM

Absolutely John. I appreciate civil exchanges, even when there is difference of opinions. Take care.

romansh · 04-10-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abel

Og,
By posting a response, you have proven that those two statements that I made were true. I "knew" you were going to post a response, yet you still had the option not to. Now, my knowledge is extremely limited and does not even compare to that of God's. If I can show the relationship between knowledge and free will I don't see why you find it so hard to believe God is able to do the same.

I would argue you did not know. You simply extrapolated on the available evidence. There was no 100% certainty involved.

How do you know your knowledge is limited compared to God's?
How do you know anything about God?

Can you explain Og's argument against free will in your own words or do you not understand it?

all the best

Og · 04-10-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romansh

I would argue you did not know. You simply extrapolated on the available evidence. There was no 100% certainty involved.

I got this the moment he said it and understood how his stance was structured. It clearly wasn't based on any kind of logic that's useful for truth seeking about these topics. I'm sure his logical path has features that support his life in other realms.

So I just didn't respond.

romansh · 04-10-2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Og

I got this the moment he said it and understood how his stance was structured. It clearly wasn't based on any kind of logic that's useful for truth seeking about these topics. I'm sure his logical path has features that support his life in other realms.

So I just didn't respond.

Should you not be elsewhere? Thinking about little Oggies? ....

Jodou1 · 04-11-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

hmm...and mocking deep felt beliefs is preferable to my up front honesty? I detect a hint of hypocrisy... I could have approached this whole exchange of ideas in a more deliberate, nuanced way. Hiding the core of my beliefs and motivation for writing, only to reveal them later to the outrage that I am currently subjected to, or just put it out there now so we can move on.

Also the accusation that I'm just going to badger you with Scripture is a little overstated. yes I did include one reference, not to prove a point in my arguement, but rather to illustrate it. I am attempting to deal with ideas, and arguments, using philosophy and experience. I think that there will be times I use Scripture to defend my position because it makes up a part of my experience.

As for the whole Bible "it has been picked over and changed to suit the purpose of the early Popes"

It shows you have bought into a common perception that is not what the scholarship of today would uphold. You can argue some other things about the validity of the books in the canon, but to argue that what we have has been changed is a challenge that has been given up long ago. Consult Bruce Metzger, generally recognized as the authority on Textual Criticism (a former Prof at Princeton University)

John76

The whole kid thing makes some sense. yeah I wish my kid would clean his room (and mine while he is at it.) But I think part of the issue is we as parents guide our children, we teach them to clean their rooms. We help them see good versus evil. without any God, I don't think we would understand that reality. (This can be a whole different thread if we want to go the whole morality in a completely materialist worldview thing)

So again if my Son is cleaning his room, but I really want him and expect him to be doing his homework I'm not gonna be pleased at all. In the same way I think God communicated his plan to us. and we generally try to do what we want to do or think is best. We'd rather do our own thing than listen to what anyone has to tell us, be they our parents or creator.

debdodd. THanks for dealing with the arguements, and not just taking cheap shots at my beleifs. Also with regard to shouting I hope you see two parts to my previous post.

1) the upfront honesty that you felt was shouting. I honestly did it to be transparent. To put my intentions and motivation out there from the beginning. Seeing as I came across arrogantly and loudly, I apologize.

2) I was trying to put together a reasoned explanation of the way I see the world, how do I make sense of the fact that "good" people do "bad" things, how are we so like each other and yet some of us get so screwed up we cause a lot of pain to a lot of people and others only cause a little bit of pain to a few people.

I think Christianity provides the best solution to why that is and what can be (or has been) done about it

Finally, I can't force you to believe anything. I could force you maybe to say something or admit something, but I wouldn't because you only really believe what you will believe. Jesus said that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. (1 John 1:9) (Again only an illustration of the point) If I try to force you to anything it won't accomplish anything so rather than force, I must reason with you all. So please, continue to reason with me. And I will seek to give you the same respect.

Thanks

Many in the same manner see Christianity/other religions as the cause of the hurt and nothing near the solution.

I myself am considered an abomination for existing in the eyes of Christianity, and I must say that is the type of 'Christian love' that comes to my mind.

Hitler was a devout catholic and used his religion to whip a nation into a frenzy.

Fred Phelps is another monster that springs to mind when I think about what's at the core of religion.

The bible encourages slaves to follow their master as their master follows God, and even to take pride in it. If we are all God's children then how is it okay in anyone's mind for some to enslave others?

If there truly is a benevolent god I refuse to believe he could be entangled with such archaic and horrible things. People who pick and choose the light and fluffy parts of the bible while ignoring the horrid areas and still calling themselves christians are only fooling themselves.

You pointed out that all of us non-believers will be going to hell. While I do believe that in your own way you mean well by trying to 'save' us, this is a scare tactic. Anyone would be a fool not to ponder the fate of their immortal soul, but they would be a bigger fool to compromise that soul out of fear.