Abel

John76

I'm not preacherman, but I would like to respond to your question.

First, yes God does know our past, present, and future. However, you have gotten some of the facts about the story of Job wrong. Satan did not get God to test Job. Satan received permission from God so that he could test Job himself.

Next, Job did not fail the test. The test was for Job to curse God, which he did not do. He passed this test even when his wife suggested he curse God and die. That is the reason God allowed Satan to attack Job. God knew Job would not curse Him. God allowed Satan to afflict Job, so that he would have the proof himself. The proof that Job passed the test is seen in the fact that God doubled to Job the material possessions Satan took.

Job was rebuked by God for questioning Him. God had everything in control, and did not need Job calling His actions into question.

That's how I read the story of Job. Hope this helps.

Astreja

So the god of the Bible rebukes its followers for questioning? Not a deity that appeals to my sensibilities.

And the "Don't you dare question" mindset is, in my opinion, exceedingly dangerous.

Og

Abel, how do you reconcile your 2 statements here? It seems to me that they are technically mutually exclusive.

Is this one of those places where god goes "beyond" logic?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Abel

Do people in positions of authority like to have their decisions questioned? Especially if the one in authority knows for certain they are right? God feels the very same way.

When I was in the military, I was taught not to question orders that were given by my superiors. That is because as leaders they were more experienced and knowing than myself. It was for my safety and benefit as well as for the safety and benefit of others that may have been in combat with me.

As far as your "Don't you dare question" mindset, it can be dangerous. Those who are open and honest do not mind being questioned. I encourage people to question and challenge me. But I'm not God. I have neither His experience or knowledge.

Abel

Im sorry Og, I don't see any statements that are at odds and in need of reconciliation. Maybe I just don't understand your question.

Abel

If you simplify for me I'll try to respond tomorrow. It's time to go to the house for today.

Bye all.

Og

It seems that the above 2 quotes are at odds. One says that God knows our past, present, and future. The second says that we have free will. How can we have freedom to act if our futures are known?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Abel

How does the knowlege of what one will do in the future limit his free will? I know you will post in the future, but you still have the option (free will) not to. Why do these two facts need to be reconciled?

Og

So you're saying that we can do something different than the future that "god knows?"

If we can make a choice as free agents such that our future behavior is unknown at any given time, how can "god know our future?"

If god "knows our future" then how can we make free choices (if our choice is already known)?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

shadowind

the way i see it is if god knows our future, or the present/past and the rules, then he'll know the outcome of all of our "decisions/freewill". personally i think of everything as a process, humans included, i think the mind has feedback mechinisims and multiple sub processes going on, but their still deterministic, including all the mind.

if we did have free will, but god knew the out come of our free will some how..., then wouldn't he know weather we are to burn forever or bow for ever, before we we're even created, so wouldn't he of created some for heaven, and others for hell?

__________________
remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll