Og

Aye, it's true. Who do you think designs the communications systems and other hardware that enable our society to exist.

It's not that we would be able to talk our way out of the firing squad, we'd avoid it all together and direct the manipulable bio-mass of "the faithful" to do our bidding and put whoever we want on the firing squad. This is the policy of the current administration.

I'd much rather NOT have the ignorant masses out there for monsters like the Bush administration to prey on and manipulate. It's not that I don't feel like I couldn't avoid a firing squad. It's that I'd rather have a world of reasoned and self-aware friends where a rising tide raises all ships instead of the current situation where monsters step on the bodies of the ignorant to reach their idols.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

Preacherman

Indians?

AndThey are what 80% Hindu, 15% Muslim 2.5% Christian and a host of other religions...a very religious, very educated people. There are also quite a few American evangelicals working in every sector of industry.

I totally agree that people are manipulated by those with power and influence. I just don't think that is what God is calling us to. I think the problem is people, not religion.

That's where I think Christianity speaks truth. It talks about how we are made in the image of God. We can be good, creative, insightful, caring, loving, but we are also plagued by a sinful nature. No matter how smart, how educated we are we are still corrupt.

So it doesn't matter if we are educated, we are still greedy, mean, selfish and hurtful.

I mean I am a pastor. I'm married, I tell people how to live, and yet I still have said things that have hurt my wife. The people I love the most, and yet somehow I can hurt them. There is something deeply wrong with humanity and curing ignorance is not the answer. It is curing the human condition the sinful nature. ANd I think that only happens in the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

debdodd

I think there are plenty of ways to find healing grace without it being through Jesus, Buddha or any other religious deity. People can find personal redemption and salvation in themselves.

The catalyst for some is through religion for others it can be via self awareness, self actualization and taking responsibility and control of their life. For some the easiest way is via organized religion but that is not the only way.

I find that a good person who is atheist, Muslim or christian is simply that. One can do good things, be a good person and not have a God to be the motivator ..... awareness of ones' surroundings, our impact on those around us and our self is; in my opinion, as important as being prodded to do these things because it is one or an other's "God's Will" or whatever parameters the religion puts on it's believers.

I haven't found that religious people are necessarily more moral than nonbelievers ....

also level of education doesn't indicate level of corruption educationt just helps getting away with the corruption easier.

I have tried plenty of religions on for size and have never found one that "fit".

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

debdodd

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

Preacherman

QUOTE]

In no way an I intending to tell you that Christianity and Jesus Christ is not the right path. I just believe that he is not the only path. That a path to goodness can be found without the help of any religion. It is more difficult to find the path on your own than to be a sheep lead blindly down someone else's path...... just my thoughts[/quote]

Right what I am saying is that we can't find a path to "goodness." We can be "morally stronger," as long as our circumstances say that our values are the moral ones. but we are far from selflessly loving...

I'm saying that people have problems. I have problems. I sin. I am capable of getting unproductively angry with my kids. Most people looking in from the outside think that I'm a wonderful person. BUT I know better. I know my weaknesses. I see all of me.

The Gospel message, the Good news says this-- There is something wrong with human kind. They sin...they all sin. They want to do good, but still crew up (ROmans 7), BUT Jesus came to earth lived a perfect life and provided a way for us to have access to grace. To be transformed. To have our sin put to death and be dealt with once and for all. Rev. 21 says

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

So that's the ultimate hope being with God, and being free from all the crap that resulsts from screwed up, but often good intentioned people.



Can I just ask what your path is? what makes sense to you and why do you pursue that rather than one of the established religions?


Another thing. I'm going to consistantly say that you are wrong and I am right, because I believe I am right. I don't mean to offend, I mean to persuade. I am commanded to love God with all my heart soul mind and strength, to love my neighbor as myself. I believe I am going to Heaven. And that unless you accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour you will go to Hell. Therefore for me to be loving I want to do all I can to help you see that which I see.

The reality is I'm supposed to love, but again even in that I fail. Most people that I see or interact with, (service people, people walking down the street, the guy who cuts me off) I don't really care about. Its easier for me to share my faith here than in real life. (I do that as well just not as brazenly) Again I see what I am called to and fall short. I know I'm supposed to be part of the solution, and I try. I really try. but I still somehow contribute to what is screwed up in this world. I need something more than I can muster. I need the power of God.

debdodd

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

john76

I imagine that it there is a Christian God, He probably esteems an agnostic or atheist moral person over a Christian one. The Christian is moral because they think they are pleasing to a higher power or are going to be getting rewarded by one. The non-believer is moral in spite of the fact that there is no higher power to care about what they do and do not do. Consider your own analogous experience 'Preacher.' Do we esteem a child more because they clean up there room after being offered a threat, or treat, or are trying to gain favor - or when they do it of their own accord?

xxkayxx

Awwww.....I'm going to hell...

__________________
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

debdodd

John; thank you, well put chap

Kay: are you sure you're not already in hell or perhaps purgatory awaiting final sentencing?

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

xxkayxx

Nope, cant be for certain, now can i But if i'm in hell, well, it explains alot of things....

And if im in purgatory.....well, God, I'm listening! come out come out wherever you are.............

__________________
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing