JoeCamaro

I dont consider myself a Christian, I consider myself Agnostic but I have been wondering something for a long time and I would like to read some of your opinions.

Im not a bible follower, but I consider myself a good person. I dont do bad to others, I help people, I am a very respectful person, I get along with almost everybody and so on. The point is that a have very high moral values.

Now lets say God exists and all there is said in the bible is true and I dont follow or believe. What will be more important in the end, that I was a good person or that I didnt believe in God? Do you think I will still be condemned to hell just because my beliefs even tough I had a good life?

I would like to hear opinions from people from different religions and beliefs.

I I think if there is really a God who is supposed to be so full of mercy and love, then actions would be more important than anything else. How about you?

Just wondering.

Joe

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AB517

This is easy.

God is just a word here, colloquial if you will.

The bible does not own God. (Period)
God starts within each one of us, every one of us. Jesus was quite clear on this matter. “The way to God is through me” is not literal. Through me means through the body of men, it starts there, in people (fundamental atheist even agree with this). I am not going to quote the bible because God is living; he is living in you and every person alive.

Every kind and gentle act taken out of compassion and the need to help is the seed of the Father. Each action in turn will help God’s will grow. The Judgement Day can be thought of the Day where most people, all types of people, chose to be good for the sake of being good. The ones “Cast out of Heaven” means the ones no longer wanted around by good men.

Gods Love on this planet is held inside of you, not a book. This can be shown in the bible, in Buddha’s teachings, and indeed in almost every religious teaching. I don’t quote books; I quote the Holy Spirit, the same Holy spirit in you.

No one man’s mind can hold the knowledge of God.
No one book can hold is plan.

The best trick of the devil (whatever that means) is to trick humans to think that man knows all he needs to know.

Enough babble, I am tiered these days. You have it.

NotConvinced

I think this notion is both clever, and the very basis of paranoia.



It's like saying "if you don't think the devil exists then it's cuz he tricked you into thinking that."

It's like C.S. Lewis's "Screwtape letters," it's just silly.


And then why do I think it's silly? "Because that's what the devil wants me to think."


....Why do I think that my car can't talk to me? "Because that's what it wants you to think, their planning to take over the world and they've fooled you into thinking they can't even talk. Muawuhuhahahaha!"

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<insert meaning of life here>

AB517

I understand this.

I mean more like why I carry a set of jumper cables though or why we got my wife a cell phone. I can see how you (or we) can think this paranoid.

It is tricky staying between prudent and paranoid.
You make good points I think.

GX

Joe!
I sense doubt and the fear of God in you!
All kidding aside, I feel you have absolutely nothing to worry about for the following reasons:
1) The Bible cant be "true" because there are too many contradictions in it. For example, one passage states that its "good works" that get you to o another states that its "faith alone". If it were true then which one of these passages would be true? Two contradictions cant be true at the same time. There are many contradictory passages and many offshoots of christianity that interpret the bible differently. You also have to remember that the Bible was put together by a church council 400 years A.D. and they decided what should and shouldnt be there instead of including all of the scriptures and it is widely believed that some things were intentionally distorted.
2) Near death research (people who were clinically dead and then brought back to life) shows that all of these people who went to heaven before they were revived and asked about hell and the devil were told that there is no hell or the devil.
3) The pope in a speech in 1999 declared that there is no hell. He said anytime the bible referred to hell, it referred to an absence of God in ones life and not a place of eternal punishment. Now these were the guys who put the bible together 1500 years ago and they are now finally coming clean. This whole satan business was just a ploy to get people to come to church.

Hope this eases your doubts and fears a little.

JoeCamaro

Hi GX
It is not fear of god. I wouldnt call it that. Lets see how I put this.
Im an Agnostic, I think there is not enought evidence to prove or disprove a god. Rationally I think it is imposibble for god to exist in reality as a being. I believe it exist in the minds of those who choose to believe. I think bible is not more than a novel with the perfect Hero and the perfect Villian.
When I was in the confussion about all that was tought to me and then things that I really believe and can be proven and stuff, I was lost in the battle of which of those two options was better, just in case god existed, because just because I dont believe in it him doesnt mean he doesnt exist at all, thats was just my impression.

Ok, now that I have a strong base on what I believe and what I dont believe, I wanted to ask people to see how each individual and/or each religion took this case.

Why I ask this? Well, my girfriends is and has been a Christian all her life. She truly believes in God, Bible, Jesus and so on. Her father is a priest wannabe and her whole family take what bible says for granted, literally, just as it is. The problem is that her father and mother talk all this pretty bull droppings @ church about love and compassion and forgiveness and blah blah, and everybody believe them. But in real life the stab people on the back talk bad about those who are different, including me, they just pretend to be a great famil, they are more concerbed in what followers think about them as a family than in their own problems. They just dont follow what they preach and I have been about to show @ church and ask them stuff, but for respect and love to my gf I havent done it YET. They think they have the heaven for granted (if it existed).

The point is, they do believe in bible and God and spread the word and so on, but they dont follow it, they dont help people, they are selfish and so on. Im not a perfect person of course, I have tons of defects but I have high moral values, I help people, Im given to others.

Now for Christians, whats more important? A good Agnostic/Atheist or a Bad Christian?

Given another example, lets say all Christians are good doers, they follow bibles sayings and worship God and so on, and on the other hand, there are Atheist who do good beacuse they want to, because they feel is the right thing and so on... Would Atheist go to Hell just because they are atheist? Or would their good acts give them a spot in heaven?
If god existed and is sooo mercyful, he should see thing in an objetvive manner right?

This question was made to see what people think, according to their religion and/or beliefs.

Im not afraid of god or devil cuz I dont believe in either.

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GX

Thanks for the clarification Joe!
As far as analyzing the Bible to answer your question, Im sure I can come up with many different answers depending on what section I read. Let me cut and paste an example from the website www.near-death.com:

"Bible contradiction #1: How are we saved?

We are saved by faith alone:
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)


"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works ..." (Rom. 11:6)

We are not saved by faith alone:
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

Both concepts cannot be true. Paul created a theology of salvation by faith alone. The Jerusalem apostles, who came into conflict with Paul on occasions, knew Jesus and his teachings much better than Paul. They continued Jesus' teachings of salvation through good works with faith playing a secondary role. The question to be answered is, "Who do you trust more? Jesus or Paul?" Nevertheless, NDE accounts generally show that we are already saved!"

If you believe in the first 2 verses, then it would be the christians you spoke of going to heaven and the good atheists going to hell. If you were to believe in the 2nd verse then it would be the good atheist and agnostics going to heaven and the christians who believe but are not good people going to hell.

Now, as far as my personal beliefs are concerned, I do believe in God and Jesus Christ but I do not believe in original sin. That i feel is something the church made up to enslave people. I do believe in a heavenly afterlife with many levels depending on your personal spiritual growth. To answer your question from my personal perspective, all of you would go to heaven as there is no such thing as hell. In your particular scenario, the atheist and agnostics would be more advanced spiritual heavenly beings than the christians in the heavenly realms.

Skepticologist

I'm wondering exactly how you pick and choose your beliefs within the context of any particular religion and still expect it to be viable. You "believe in God and Jesus Christ", but you "do not believe in original sin"? How long has it been since your read the first chapter of Genesis? If that's not an account of original sin, I don't know what is. Problem is, it wasn't Adam's or Eve's original sin. It was God's, because, according to biblical scripture, he created them "in his own image", and with all their propensities for disobeying him.

And with that kind of basic contradiction, you remain a believer?

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

GX

"I'm wondering exactly how you pick and choose your beliefs within the context of any particular religion and still expect it to be viable. You "believe in God and Jesus Christ", but you "do not believe in original sin"? How long has it been since your read the first chapter of Genesis? If that's not an account of original sin, I don't know what is. Problem is, it wasn't Adam's or Eve's original sin. It was God's, because, according to biblical scripture, he created them "in his own image", and with all their propensities for disobeying him.
And with that kind of basic contradiction, you remain a believer?"

I understand how my beliefs may seem a little perplexing. Allow me to explain. First of all, at this point in my life, I dont pick and choose my beliefs within the context of any religion. Secondly, I do not believe in the Bible as the word of God but as a historical document of some tribes of ancient men trying to come to an understanding of God, nothing more, nothing less. In other words, I do not base my belief in God or my concepts of God (or Jesus Christ for that matter) on what is written in the Bible or on any religious doctrine. I base my beliefs and concepts of God on reputable near death experience and reincarnation research conclusions which are quite different from what is in the bible. Many people around the world died, asked questions and came back to tell quite consistent tales different from that of the bible. I take their word over some clerical person trying to cull and interpret truth from a book full of contradictions that is the bible.

As far as Jesus Christ is concerned, I believe that such an individual existed and did a lot of great things and that he was a highly evolved being. I cant imagine that this person didnt exist and someone made him up. If you have any hoax research, I would be interested in reading it. How he came about and what he was, I have no idea (a reincarnate of buddha, the son of god, a regular guy, I have no clue nor do I wish to speculate on that). All I know that he seemed to be a great teacher to humankind as were others throughout history. I also believe that the church withheld information and intentionally distorted the true teachings of Jesus for the purpose of establishing and maintaining their institutional power. Many early gnostic texts concerning Jesus were destroyed and the ones that were hidden and discovered reveal reincarnation and many other texts were deliberately withheld from the bible. There are many theories as to what was Jesus's true mission to humankind. I did some research and personally agree with the conclusions that he wanted to rid humankind of the concept of original sin and wanted to teach us that we could all spiritually evolve and do all of those amazing things he could. This is my personal opinion.

In conclusion, my beliefs consist of the desire to evolve and transcend from the current religious/biblical interpretations of God to a more advanced interpretation and I am currently "in process" and looking to take it to the next level. Kind of like Galileo wished to evolve and transcend science from a "world is flat" scenario to a "world is round" scenario (please note, I am not comparing myself to the genius of Galileo nor am I putting myself on his advanced level, I am only making an illustration for the purposes of clarity). Galileo used a telescope and I use near death and reincarnation research. Our spiritual understandings and beliefs need to evolve just as our scientific understandings and beliefs have evolved if we are to avoid the conflicts of war and survive as a species.

I hope this clears things up for you and if not, let me know...

GX

JoeCamaro

Hey GX
You and I have very different points of view, you believe, I dont, but I must say that you are a very different believer. I respect everybody's opinions and beliefs as I want them to respect mine.
I like the way you think (not that it will change anything in me), but I can see you are thinking outside the box. You analized bible your way, you got your own conclusions and have an open mind.
I like your way.

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