The Afterlife - Page 4

rstrats · 02-09-2008, 07:33 AM

Skepticologist,

re: “Nothing, as long as it's based on logic and reason. Otherwise, you can sign on to any and all hair-brained fantasies.”

Is there any implication in that comment that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

AB517 · 02-09-2008, 11:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Skepticologist

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Originally Posted by AB517

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Originally Posted by Skepticologist

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Originally Posted by romansh

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Originally Posted by marmalade

1) There is only one sure way of getting evidence. But I'm thinking you aren't quite ready yet to die.
2) When I think about all of life, it seems weird to me. Continued existence is no more weird than discontinued existence for existence in general is a very odd thing.
3) The only reason that discontinued existence wouldn't seem weird is because if it happened, you wouldn't be around to think anything.

marm
1) even when I die .... I could not be sure ..... reincarnated as a grasshopper say? .... but you are quite right, I'm not ready for the (pen?)ultimate experiment.
2) yes life is amazing, weird .... we (I presume) are certain as we can be that it is real...whatever that is. So I can use that as my point to extrapolate from (I know I need at least two).
3) I agree with the last part; but is it the only reason? I'm not a fan of shaving but Occam's razor and a lack of verifiable evidence come to mind.

Believing in afterlife does not make sense from an agnostic point of view.
For me, disbelieving that an after life does not exist is irrelevant.

OK. I can relate to your need to believe that existence doesn't end with physical death. After having existed, it's difficult to accept any premise that doesn't ensure continued existence.

But, considering the billions of people who have existed on the face of the earth, what's accomplished by their continuing existence in whatever form? It's not like some sentient consciousness from thousands of years ago will have hung on to existence long enough to elucidate the meaning of life for those of us who have come on the scene much later.

What's so horrible about a concept that says that, for whatever reason, and by whatever agency, we existed as humans on the face of a miniscule planet for a number of years that's inconsequential by even the most liberal standards, and that we simply no longer exist in that form?

Nothing.

What is wrong with believing there is something? What so horrible about that?

Nothing, as long as it's based on logic and reason. Otherwise, you can sign on to any and all hair-brained fantasies. Which will it be? 70 virgins? Pearly gates and streets of gold?

Take your pick. They're all equally nebulous.

Yep, I agree with this.

The universe recycles many things, changing them. Maybe we will follow a similar path.

GX · 02-10-2008, 11:28 AM

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Originally Posted by marmalade

Romansh,

There is only one sure way of getting evidence. But I'm thinking you aren't quite ready yet to die.

When I think about all of life, it seems weird to me. Continued existence is no more weird than discontinued existence for existence in general is a very odd thing. The only reason that discontinued existence wouldn't seem weird is because if it happened, you wouldn't be around to think anything.

There is another sure fire way to get your own personal evidence without having to die. Its called "astral projection" or "induced out of body experiences". There are many "how to" books written on the subject along with various institutes and workshops. Many people have claimed to have read the books, went to the workshops and learned this. Obviously, the only way to prove this is to try it yourself.

romansh · 02-10-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GX

There is another sure fire way to get your own personal evidence without having to die. Its called "astral projection" or "induced out of body experiences". There are many "how to" books written on the subject along with various institutes and workshops. Many people have claimed to have read the books, went to the workshops and learned this. Obviously, the only way to prove this is to try it yourself.

I have a problem with the logic here.
This assumes the out of body experiences will continue after death?
What is your evidence for that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection

GX · 02-10-2008, 12:54 PM

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Originally Posted by romansh

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Originally Posted by GX

There is another sure fire way to get your own personal evidence without having to die. Its called "astral projection" or "induced out of body experiences". There are many "how to" books written on the subject along with various institutes and workshops. Many people have claimed to have read the books, went to the workshops and learned this. Obviously, the only way to prove this is to try it yourself.

I have a problem with the logic here.
This assumes the out of body experiences will continue after death?
What is your evidence for that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection

Im not sure this is considered evidence but I have done a lot of research on this quite fascinating topic. Those who astrally project claim to be able to do the following:

1) Meet with their spirit guides/guardian angels and discuss their souls purpose in this lifetime and view their past lives
2) Meet and speak with friends/relatives who have passed away
3) Have consensual "astral sex"

This is just the tip of the iceberg. I havent listed everything here. There have been studies done in France where the subject projects while lying on a highly accurate scale and while the subject is projecting, they consistently lose around 20-50 grams of bodyweight. Those who have successfully projected are personally transformed in the same way as those who have had near death experiences i.e. they have a different yet healthy outlook on life and no fear of death because they know whats going to happen and how its going to feel. All in all this sounds like something worth trying, especially if you are seeking your own answers and fear death. I would think that this is something that agnostics would attempt to pursue with a passion. I guess you will just have to try it yourself and come to your own conclusions!

GX

romansh · 02-10-2008, 11:04 PM

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Originally Posted by GX

All in all this sounds like something worth trying, especially if you are seeking your own answers and fear death. I would think that this is something that agnostics would attempt to pursue with a passion. I guess you will just have to try it yourself and come to your own conclusions!

........GX

OK assuming astral projection exists... I believe I experienced something very similar when I was young.
What is the evidence it has anythig to to with life after death?

Just a curiosity do the subjects regain their mass when the astral projection has been completed?

GX · 02-11-2008, 12:48 AM

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Originally Posted by romansh

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Originally Posted by GX

All in all this sounds like something worth trying, especially if you are seeking your own answers and fear death. I would think that this is something that agnostics would attempt to pursue with a passion. I guess you will just have to try it yourself and come to your own conclusions!

........GX

OK assuming astral projection exists... I believe I experienced something very similar when I was young.
What is the evidence it has anythig to to with life after death?

Just a curiosity do the subjects regain their mass when the astral projection has been completed?

Well, I cant speak from personal experience (yet), but if your consciousness is able to physically leave your body while you are alive what is to stop it from doing so after your body dies? People who astrally project are supposedly able to levitate above and view their bodies, fly across town etc. It would seem that the logical conclusion here is that consciousness transcends the physical body (have you ever heard of "auras"?) instead of the body being the "closed container" of consciouness. In other words the physical body is not the "be all and end all" of consciousness.

As far as hard "physical" evidence is concerned, obviously, there is none but there have been some interesting experiments. To answer your question, yes the body goes back to its normal weight from that experiment in france I mentioned. As an interesting aside to that, experiments have been done with dying patients as well and they all lose around that much weight at the time of death and they dont regain it back. There was also an experiment by a researcher named Charles Tart in 1968 where the subject who astrally projected was able to retrieve a 5 digit number he sealed in an enevelope in another part of the building. There is more anecdotal research but that I cant recall momentarily but I hope you get my point.

If its not too personal, would you mind sharing the nature of your out of body experience with us?

Mustainez · 02-11-2008, 06:20 AM

I am going with King Diamond:
But since I don't know I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it. I'm not going to waste my time here on Earth trying to figure out why I'm here, because I won't. Though these answers, maybe if there is this big god somewhere, and if it ever decides to give us a little time of day to show itself and explain it to us, then maybe I'll find the answers. But that might never happen in this lifetime, so why would I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the reasons are? I'll never have that chance. Instead of wasting all that time I'm going to do things that I know make me feel good, and that way I'll live a better life here on Earth.

**Skepticologist** · 02-11-2008, 08:43 AM

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Originally Posted by rstrats

Skepticologist,

re: “Nothing, as long as it's based on logic and reason. Otherwise, you can sign on to any and all hair-brained fantasies.”

Is there any implication in that comment that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

Geez, I certainly hope there is. Are you implying that a person somehow inherently believes something without CHOOSING to believe it?

romansh · 02-11-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skepticologist

Geez, I certainly hope there is. Are you implying that a person somehow inherently believes something without CHOOSING to believe it?

I think this depends on exactly what we mean by 'choose'.
I did not choose, one morning forty years ago, to consider myself Christian.
Over time I did not choose to become agnostic.

Skept did you choose to become agnostic or did you find one day your beliefs (or the lack of them) to be agnostically aligned? Goes back to the free will thread?

all the best