How to stop religious growth in America - Page 4

**WilliamBlue** · 04-07-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

Just a thing to think about before we go taking down religion. More people have died because of genocidal humanist regimes in the 2oth century than in all the religious wars in history. I'd keep it around even if i didn't believe, just for your sakes.

The bloodiest religious war was the 30 years war...Estimates say it could have been between 6-14 million. The Crusades may have totalled up to 9 million. 1. Robertson, History of Christianity: p168

Most other wars have not even approached 1 million

genocide by Germans in addition to the 6 million Jews there were between 15-30 million total killed by genocide (not counting the loss of life by war) RJ Rummel estimates the Russians killed over 61 million in their genocide and the Chinese Communists over 35 million by genocide. WW2 itself the bloodiest of all the wars was not quite 30 million.

I would argue that genocide due to religious persecution is still happening and although the individual numbers involved are not the huge numbers you mention above they are probably adding up to these numbers if not more over time, after all a few thousands here, a thousands there, won't grab the headlines like those you mention. I know you know that people are still dying because of their religious beliefs, right?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...28/ai_76915684

Not to mention the Israel/Palistan debacle. You could even argue that the current mess in Iraq could be consider religious in nature, although I think it's more about money and control than anything else, most of these things are, religion is used to sway the masses, Only the preachers and the people in power know what is really going on(what is your motivation here anyway?

). We are an animal that prefers to live in tribes.

If you are arguing that we need religion to control the masses then I would argue that it will only work if there is one religion and we know that that is not going to happen unless 'your creator' makes it happen, which seems he unwilling to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

Here is a quote by J. Bradford DeLong
University of California at Berkeley

But the greater power of governments to organize and carry out purges, the sharpening of ethnic conflicts, and the rising power of violent nationalism were, even together, not enough to trigger the genocides of this century. That required two political movements: Communism and Fascism. And both Communism and Fascism were movements that had economic ideology at their core.

In the present day it is harder for the major powers to get away with this type of thing as technology has shrunk the planet, look at what China is facing in Tibet(and rightly so I believe), although I am not saying that these major acts of genocide will never happen again, just that the price will be a lot higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

I say you all re-consider the ideology of atheism, and the idea that all things humans, animals, plants, rocks are equal.

This is OGs idea, although I find the idea that the creator is present in everything to be highly attractive, his hard evidence for such an idea is also lacking. Lots of individuals look like rocks to me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

Also re-consider agnosticism. Your tagline says only the truth matters. If that is the case don't just say, "it matters, but I just have no idea what it is." Get busy, figure it out, search for the truth because it matters.

The truth of the matter is that you have no evidence other than a 2000 year old book written by men that may or may not be properly translated. I have looked at your evidence and it does not make sense, as far as fences go I don't even see one in sight.

shadowind · 04-07-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

Your tagline says only the truth matters. If that is the case don't just say, "it matters, but I just have no idea what it is." Get busy, figure it out, search for the truth because it matters.

maby we've figured out we can't know what it is on some subjects...

Preacherman · 04-08-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamBlue

I would argue that genocide due to religious persecution is still happening and although the individual numbers involved are not the huge numbers you mention above they are probably adding up to these numbers if not more over time, after all a few thousands here, a thousands there, won't grab the headlines like those you mention. I know you know that people are still dying because of their religious beliefs, right?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...28/ai_76915684

Not to mention the Israel/Palistan debacle. You could even argue that the current mess in Iraq could be consider religious in nature, although I think it's more about money and control than anything else, most of these things are, religion is used to sway the masses, Only the preachers and the people in power know what is really going on(what is your motivation here anyway?

). We are an animal that prefers to live in tribes.

If you are arguing that we need religion to control the masses then I would argue that it will only work if there is one religion and we know that that is not going to happen unless 'your creator' makes it happen, which seems he unwilling to do.

Yeah, Christians are getting it worse than anyone in todays world, but we can't ignore our past so I'm not gonna act like its all "their" fault. All of it is horrendous all of it is wrong. My point is that once you take Supenaturally dictated moral mandates out of the equation, and people are free to decide what is moral. And people continue to be as greedy, selfish and power hungry as ever, things get much worse, much more quickly.

on another note, the one religion thing to me is the scariest of all ideas, cause then you get all the power in one small groups hands and people begin to abuse it/consolidate it/ kill for it. Again the problem is people, not religion. But I think God knows better than to let people in their sinful nature have that kind of rampant unchecked power. Yikes. Oh, my creator (and yours IMO) hasn't decided to do that yet. The Bible talks about God's patience and why things are the way they are is because he is giving you time to figure it out.

Thirdly, you are right, because I am a member of that secret organization (of preachers), I alone know what is going on here. So I'd watch your back or you'll soon be spewing my perspective everywhere you go

Quote:

In the present day it is harder for the major powers to get away with this type of thing as technology has shrunk the planet, look at what China is facing in Tibet(and rightly so I believe), although I am not saying that these major acts of genocide will never happen again, just that the price will be a lot higher.

Yeah, I think it just shows that nations, just like people get away with as much as they can until it starts to backfire. it will just take a large enough regime to enact their will on the masses...again that one religion thing freaks me out. (Even though I believe in one true religion) As long as Jesus hasn't returned and people are running the show I say watch the freak out.

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Lots of individuals look like rocks to me

Agreed.

Quote:

The truth of the matter is that you have no evidence other than a 2000 year old book written by men that may or may not be properly translated. I have looked at your evidence and it does not make sense, as far as fences go I don't even see one in sight.

Translation? is that really a problem for you? I mean we have greek texts, if that's what is holding you back, learn you some Greek.

**WilliamBlue** · 04-08-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamBlue

I would argue that genocide due to religious persecution is still happening and although the individual numbers involved are not the huge numbers you mention above they are probably adding up to these numbers if not more over time, after all a few thousands here, a thousands there, won't grab the headlines like those you mention. I know you know that people are still dying because of their religious beliefs, right?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...28/ai_76915684

Not to mention the Israel/Palistan debacle. You could even argue that the current mess in Iraq could be consider religious in nature, although I think it's more about money and control than anything else, most of these things are, religion is used to sway the masses, Only the preachers and the people in power know what is really going on(what is your motivation here anyway?

). We are an animal that prefers to live in tribes.

If you are arguing that we need religion to control the masses then I would argue that it will only work if there is one religion and we know that that is not going to happen unless 'your creator' makes it happen, which seems he unwilling to do.

Yeah, Christians are getting it worse than anyone in todays world, but we can't ignore our past so I'm not gonna act like its all "their" fault. All of it is horrendous all of it is wrong. My point is that once you take Supenaturally dictated moral mandates out of the equation, and people are free to decide what is moral. And people continue to be as greedy, selfish and power hungry as ever, things get much worse, much more quickly.

Arguable, about Christianity, you do know that this is a battle taking place over turf and other religion see it as a live or die situation? My point is that organized religion allows people to be fragmented, not that it is the only reason, it is just a major one because it crosses international borders thus more people are involved. Fragmentation into groups or tribes makes it easier for individuals to harm others as it becomes an us versus them.

It also makes it easier for fanatics to rally to a cause such as jihad, I believe it would be much more difficult to get people to commit suicide in such dramatic and destructive ways if the religious element was taken out of the equation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

on another note, the one religion thing to me is the scariest of all ideas, cause then you get all the power in one small groups hands and people begin to abuse it/consolidate it/ kill for it. Again the problem is people, not religion. But I think God knows better than to let people in their sinful nature have that kind of rampant unchecked power. Yikes. Oh, my creator (and yours IMO) hasn't decided to do that yet. The Bible talks about God's patience and why things are the way they are is because he is giving you time to figure it out.

I do not want to go into the whole argument why your creator decided to make an imperfect being and then is surprised when it is imperfect...etc, etc. Suffice to say that it makes no sense to me, thus this statement makes no sense to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

Thirdly, you are right, because I am a member of that secret organization (of preachers), I alone know what is going on here. So I'd watch your back or you'll soon be spewing my perspective everywhere you go

I knew it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacherman

Quote:

In the present day it is harder for the major powers to get away with this type of thing as technology has shrunk the planet, look at what China is facing in Tibet(and rightly so I believe), although I am not saying that these major acts of genocide will never happen again, just that the price will be a lot higher.

Yeah, I think it just shows that nations, just like people get away with as much as they can until it starts to backfire. it will just take a large enough regime to enact their will on the masses...again that one religion thing freaks me out. (Even though I believe in one true religion) As long as Jesus hasn't returned and people are running the show I say watch the freak out.

Quote:

Lots of individuals look like rocks to me

Agreed.

Quote:

The truth of the matter is that you have no evidence other than a 2000 year old book written by men that may or may not be properly translated. I have looked at your evidence and it does not make sense, as far as fences go I don't even see one in sight.

Translation? is that really a problem for you? I mean we have greek texts, if that's what is holding you back, learn you some Greek.

I am not talking about a literal translation, I am talking about a culture one, words, as you should know, have had different meanings at different times during history, not to mention the canonization by a different culture, it would be a real shame if Christianity had really lost the path and all those people were lost...

Preacherman · 04-09-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Arguable, about Christianity, you do know that this is a battle taking place over turf and other religion see it as a live or die situation? My point is that organized religion allows people to be fragmented, not that it is the only reason, it is just a major one because it crosses international borders thus more people are involved. Fragmentation into groups or tribes makes it easier for individuals to harm others as it becomes an us versus them.

It also makes it easier for fanatics to rally to a cause such as jihad, I believe it would be much more difficult to get people to commit suicide in such dramatic and destructive ways if the religious element was taken out of the equation?

Yeah, no doubt. we look for ways to be different, we are a tribal people. (I agree with whoever said that earlier) Religion is one of those ways we divide, but we are pretty good at dividing along any and every line.

I guess, there is a way people are, and a way the Bible calls them to be. loving. I intentionally play ball and talk to muslims weekly. Caring. I am serving at a children's home on Saturday. Patient. I suck at this, but try. In community I meet with a group to discuss life struggles issues on Wednesdays and a close friend monday morning. speaking the truth (or at least what I have been convinced is the truth in love). One reason I am on here. I know that I came across as condemning, but did try to demonstrate how there can be differences in why I do something and how you may recieve it. I failed at this. Probably due to the patience thing.

The point is the Bible calls us to be what we naturally are not, and because we aren't perfect we screw that up, too. but I'd rather people follow something that demands they try to have Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, and self control.

Rather than something that says we are all part of the machine. You are the way you are, embrace it. (I think this is a more modern ideaology that gets rolled into all viewpoints, including many Christians)

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I do not want to go into the whole argument why your creator decided to make an imperfect being and then is surprised when it is imperfect...etc, etc. Suffice to say that it makes no sense to me, thus this statement makes no sense to me.

I know there are so many things to argue so little time!

For another day, my friend. (I'd be surprised if he was surprised)

Quote:

I am not talking about a literal translation, I am talking about a culture one, words, as you should know, have had different meanings at different times during history, not to mention the canonization by a different culture, it would be a real shame if Christianity had really lost the path and all those people were lost...

Okay, thanks for clarifying. We do a lot of work in the field to understand the culture and the sources. We use other texts that share the time frame to help us understand the words, even using the authors general meaning to provide further insight into how this author understands these words. There is more study and more books/articles/papers on the Bible than any other subject. If we can have any idea of what DID happen it should be about the time of Jesus.

Of course with so many articles there are a lot of differing ideas out there. Especially with the nature of Academia today (If you want to make a name for yourself, you have to be more controversial, if you just want a PHD you are still supposed to introduce something "new" That makes for a lot of things to wade through to find truth, and even consensus)

I guess after all that I have to agree it is really hard to be sure. I know I have some wrong beliefs, just don't know which...

You are even more right when you say it would be a real shame if Christianity lost the path...Paul shares your sentiment

1 Cor 15 17-19 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

shadowind · 04-10-2008, 08:37 PM

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Yeah, no doubt. we look for ways to be different, we are a tribal people. (I agree with whoever said that earlier) Religion is one of those ways we divide, but we are pretty good at dividing along any and every line.

en, yet many seem to still want to be part of a group. i don't really see much individuality, just less popular groups. its funny when someone thinks their different becuse of an uncommon dress style or the like, exspecially when theirs 5 of their friends dressed the same way. if your part of a counterculture then your still part of a culture. its the group thats different, not neccassarly each of its members. the most individual people seem to be the ones with friends not like them. i think people tend to hang around similarity and seek renforcement of what they consider desireable of themselves. thus most people seem to have most of their friends similar to themselves, or so it seems to me. its just a search for security, i can't think of anything less secure then that of security by similarity. if anything differences can go a long way into the positive.

Jodou1 · 04-14-2008, 02:29 AM

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Also re-consider agnosticism. Your tagline says only the truth matters. If that is the case don't just say, "it matters, but I just have no idea what it is." Get busy, figure it out, search for the truth because it matters.

I'll only speak for myself on this instance, but I am sure some agree. For me Agnosticism isn't just waiting for the truth or sitting on a fence. I've said before(and possibly somewhere on this forum) that to me "I don't know" is a declaritive statement and not one of confusion.

I am as firm in my beliefs as any Athiest or Christian is. It is erroneous to assume that Agnosticism is the religious waiting room where we're all window shoping waiting for something to 'catch our eye' so to speak.

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The point is the Bible calls us to be what we naturally are not, and because we aren't perfect we screw that up, too. but I'd rather people follow something that demands they try to have Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, and self control.

Rather than something that says we are all part of the machine. You are the way you are, embrace it. (I think this is a more modern ideaology that gets rolled into all viewpoints, including many Christians)

This time I most definitely speak for myself. While I don't prescribe to any predetermined set of spiritual beliefs I do hold the belief that there is more to life than what is in front of our faces. I am Agnostic, I accept evolution as valid, and I most certainly do not believe we're all just part of some "machine". Hope I haven't meddled with too many of your preconceptions.