marmalade

I don't know what Og means, but I'll give you Wilber's holarchical perspective.

The body transcends and includes the individual cells of the body. Another example, according to Spiral Dynamics, literal interpretation(one right absolute truth) is blue meme which is transcended and included by orange rationality which itself is transcended and included by green relativism(multiple perspectives). As for opposites, faith(blue meme) and rationality(orange meme) seem to contradict eachother until they both are transcended and included in the greater perspective of green meme. Or science(orange meme) and relativism(green meme) seem contradictory to many until they develop to second tier.

Einstein said that a problem can't be solved at the same level from which it was created.

harleylove

This is great, I love it. It's so refreshing to see somebody else talk about similar beliefs as mine. Og, you bring a message that needs to be heard and you tell it over and over again. It is one of peace, love, happiness and pure true bliss.

__________________
If the day and night are such that you greet them with joy, and life emits a fragrance like flowers and sweet-scented herbs--that is your success. All nature is your congratulation.
Henry David Thoreau 1817-1862

romansh

Greater than the sum of the parts?

I'm sorry ...remember you are dealing with an INTP here?????

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

marmalade

Basically. The body isn't merely a group of cells. The body is a interconnection of cells that is not only more complex on the physical level, but also leads to the brain/mind.

Wilber differentiates between heaps and holons. A group of strangers standing around is a heap. A community of family, friends, and neighbors is a holon.

I'm sorry ...remember you are dealing with an INTP here?????[/quote]

I realized when I posted it that no one else might know what I was talking about.

If you google Spiral Dynamics, holons/holarchy, and Ken Wilber, then you'll find more than enough data to feed your Ti's need for analysis. If you simply want to understand Spiral Dynamics, then check out Clare Graves original work or the later work of Chris Cowan or Don Beck. Clare Graves based his theories on research and its fairly complex.

All of that is on the web. But if it seems to difficult to find, I can link something.

romansh

Thanks Marmalade

I am reading Campbell at the moment ... I need his transcendent.
My initial thought it might mean "inexpressable" or, something (a concept) that is felt rather than rationalized?????

Being an INTP I can only go with the flow for so long without understanding.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

I'll try to speak to transcendence:

It's the elementary idea that all religions speak to. It's stepping away from categories of thought. Even that description, however, is not transcendent given that it indicates categories of here and "away" from categories of thought.

In christianity, transcencdence is embodied in the garden of eden and the act of jesus. The garden of Eden describes the acquisition of categories of thought (i.e. of good and evil and of birth and death) when we ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of these things. This is the birth of human consciousness and ego (i.e. the concept of an individual here and the rest of the world out there). This is when the notion of free will arises (i.e. that we are a separate entity in the world). This is what the garden of eden speaks to. We were cast out of the garden, and yaweh put two cherubs at the gates. One had a sword (see another example of categories of thought). We were cast out lest we eat of the fruit of the tree of eternal life and become gods. Here, clearly, yaweh is a god of exile and is the santa claus between us and enlightenment.

Jesus' message is that you are it and you have it within you. The Christ is in all of us. Jesus's actions spoke to a breakdown of letting these categories drive your life. Sayings like "Love your Enemy" and "Hate your family/friends/life" along with all of the metaphors and beatitudes talking about meek inheriting the earth and in loving your brother as yourself.

Jesus' act on the cross is on of transcendence. His act represents a counter to the expulsion from eden. By identifying with christ and partaking in communion of the body/blood of christ on the cross, you are eating the fruit of the tree of eternal life and conquering original sin in the garden and connecting with the transcendent core of your being.


In the hindu/buddhist path, the images are identical. Instead of Adam in the garden as the first consciousness, they have Aham in the void and instead of good/evil, aham experiences fear and desire (another representation of categories of thought). Fear and desire are opposites just as good and evil are but they more clearly speak to forces acting on your psyche.

All of the path of the hindu and buddhist approach are focused on attaining christhood in the same way that christ did. The hindus believe in the cycle of rebirth "samsara" which means "whirlwind" or tornado. In a whirlwind, there is always an opposite wind moving at the opposite side of the eye of the storm. The act of the buddha, and the meaning of the dot on the forehead of the hindus is one of transcending these opposites and finding the calm center, Nirvana, where all opposites negate and there is calm.

There is a wonderful buddhist temple somewhere in japan with two huge demon warriors outside in different stances. Inside the temple is a statue of the buddha beconing you in. This is EXACTLY identical to jesus and the garden of eden. The demons outside are as the cherubs outside the garden. They represent categories of thought such as good and evil and fear and desire that drive your perception of the world and your psyche. And just as jesus represents a return to the garden, the buddha is inside beconing you in. And the realization is that those guardians are within you and that you already are within the temple/garden. This is like dorothy in the wizard of oz when she realized that all she had to do was click her heals and she was standing at home where she wanted to be all along.

There are many parallels in american indian culture as well which represent identical myths that campbell gets into. Most of them represent the 4 directions and our center within them etc etc...

The pyramid on the US 1 dollar bill speaks to the eden/nirvana/transcendence metaphor as well. Anywhere on the sides of the pyramid, there is an opposite side. The only place that this doesn't hold true is at the apex. At this point, there is a point (just like with nirvana and samsara) and at that point is the eye of the divine. That is the eye of transcendence and what that symbol is speaking to and I love that it is on our currency.

Kant speaks about categories of thought and such in his "critique of pure reason" as the only ways we can relate to the world. Campbell often quotes an old vedic text from the hindus about two birds in the tree of life who are fast friends. One eats the fruit of the tree while one watches. And this is a metaphor for how we should live. Eat of life and play the game and partake in the wonders and horrors of existence, but be friends with the transcendent truth of your existence.

Free will is an illusion. Distinctions of any kind are an illusion. You, I, no distinction (Tat Tvam Asi). It's the fulcrum of all spiritualities of the world. It's the fundamental core of christianity and of all world religions. Free yourself from fear and desire. With the wirlwind of existence around you, touch the ground as the Buddha did and find your immovable spot (Nirvana).

Transcendence is not something you attain as that would indicate a difference between now and then. Transcendence has nothing to do with being and non-being or past and future or left or right or good or evil or birth or death. That is what jesus' birth story speaks to. It speaks to a divine birth of this realization within humans.

That's the grown up table understanding of christ just as the christmas spirit is the grown up interpretation of santa claus. It is within you, not without.

This is perfectly in accord with modern science and cosmology and history and archeology as it must be to be speaking to truth. Literalism is fine for many people. It connects them to the truth superficially, but it gives them an anchor point from which they can grow. This is the value of metaphors and symbols. They are vehicles. They point you at truth. But when you get to that yonder shore, you don't pick up the boat and carry it with you. You leave it behind.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

AB517

Yes this right.
I am only adding to this post as support to what Og says.

I don’t have all the background info for I never read them.
But this was contained in my experience.

It if for us that feel this to teach and guide those who do not understand. We are to use their anchor points, their seeds if you will. Nurture them as the beautiful plants they are now and can become in the soil that they know. Kinda like miracle grow. It is for us all.

Jesus tried, and we can feel his frustration, to teach the Jews of that time with their anchor points, the Old Testament. He tried to show them the transient nature of the ideas by taking them to the gentiles.

Jesus spoke about the camel and the needle.
God can do anything; making us his equal is not only possible but is his will.
This does not mean we can do magic here on Earth.

I am not as well versed as Og, in these writings, but what he said it true. I especially agree with how he connected the religions. We are one.

marmalade

What Og speaks of is non-dualism. I've been attracted to non-dualism because, like AB, it has described some of my experiences.

However, in the integral world, the question about what is transcendence is constantly argued about even amongst people who've studied and meditated their whole lives. Some believe non-dualism is the ultimate transcendance, but others believe there are experiences of transcendence beyond this. I'm specifically thinking of M. Alan Kazlev who recently said something about this...

http://opensourceintegral.ning.com/f...967Comment2561

Here is an article by Kazlev about Wilber and Aurobindo:

http://www.integralworld.net/index.html?kazlev3.html

Some traditions have been leary of the transcending path. I read a quote from a Sufi recently. The Sufi recommended meditating on the heart rather than the third eye because this way one doesn't get lost in transcendent experiences to the detriment of being in the world... its helpful to stay grounded while experiencing non-ordinary states to balance the transcendent with the immanent.

Yet, non-dualism is a word that has been interpreted in many ways and for some definitions it would include this being-in-the-world. I'd guess this is what Og means. Og doesn't seem the world-denying type.

tommi atkins

From the OP's link
"For instance, while 73% of the adults who did not attend college believe this account to be literal, just half as many college graduates (38%) hold that view. "

Which shows that Religion is more acceptable to the masses.

romansh

Thanks guys ..... I'm looking for something simple along the lines of a dictionary definition at the moment.

I have attached some dictionary definitions
What is the one that JC would use or does it depend on the context?
Or is there another one that can be used?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams