Og

Or maybe its how you interpret them? Or how a large number of people with a similar mindset interpret them?

The adjectives I was using are not designed to be over the top. They're designed to be accurate and eloquent. The negative sounding adjectives go with negative topics (i.e. "belief," which is necessarily a solidification of the ego and thus problematic for people to work together).

The positive adjectives go with the positive topics (i.e. ideas and the scientific non-belief forming approach which allows for the easy integration of new facts into one's world view)...

That's the central theme of these topics that people are speaking to in this thread. It's the solidification of the mind. A rock solid mind has high levels of faith and belief and (generally) are associated with theism. The more fluid and adaptive minds are transparent to changing experiences and multiple perspectives and necessarily lend themselves to atheism or agnosticism.

I think that I use negative adjectives with negative ideas.. I don't think there's anything out of proportion here that would indicate things like:
1) Me being abused as a child
2) Me having a mental illness
3) Me being an alcoholic or a drug addict

In fact, none of these things has ever been the case. I have had a blessed existence in virtually all ways. The harshness of your assault on me with your initial comments makes me feel like you're the one that needs to increase introspection.

My post was about the value of ideas and free thought versus beliefs and close mindedness (faith). Your response was about the character of the person delivering the ideas. I'm sorry if you took what I was saying as personally directed at you.. That's the problem with identifying with a solidifying concept. You can assault the notion of free inquiry and skepticism all you want and I'll welcome it and won't indicate your insanity/drug addiction for doing so!

Metta, friend.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Vinterland

When it comes to reading opinions on the internet, negativity and cynicism is the norm, and I see nothing wrong with Og's informative definitions other than a bit too much rhetoric. If one was picked on as a kid I would expect to read death threats and call for genocide on people of faith.

Anyhow, my defs

1. Religion - a belief system where knowledge is usually gained by spiritual leader, revealed text, or spiritual experience.

2. Faith - belief, but strongly embraced without evidence, even with evidence against.

3. Beliefe/Believe - something held as true based on rationalisation and with or without evidence. It's often times difficult for people to distinguish between belief and faith, especially when many levels of conviction are involved.

4. Pretend - joking around, fooling others or yourself.

5. Hope - wishful thinking

6. Theist - believes in God or gods. Contrary to popular belief, one must not be convicted of their beliefs in order to be a theist. The same applies to atheist.

7. Atheist - lacks belief in God

8. Agnostic - believes that God is unknown to exist and bases this observation on scientific methodology. Today, agnosticism has many characteristics of a religion and this is recognised by many who now label it as one.

9. Deist - a theist who believes in a deadbeat Dad.

10. Honesty - quality of being truthful and fair

You might want to consider joining Bibleforums.org. The people there would most likely agree with your oversimplified and half incorrect definitions.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

romansh

V ... just checking... convicted .... you use it the same sense as convinced?
thanks

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Geshtinnanna

That could be true. Since we are here, why not go through it....
Maybe it's just a word you are ignorant about? Could be to many faith is a very important and reasonable concept for THEM. Just not for you...but it doesn't sound like an OBJECTIVE statement at all...to me.

Crutches huh? Sounds very non OBJECTIVE to me..not matter how you try to sound logical. It sounds...bitter to be honest.

Uhuh...very non judgemental and factual there. You go with your bitter self...see a trend?

Absurdity huh? Yep....

And of course your definition for Agnostic comes off smelling like the most rational concept ever. It's just smelling like roses.

What I am getting at is fess up to your biased opinions. Don't cover it in gobbly gook. Those excerpts were pretty, well what's that word....passive agressive in your obvious distaste. I say you don't like something then wear your hate on your sleeve. Don't hide behind psudo intellectual opinions on concepts you are obviously hostile towards. So go on and hate. It's ok.

That's what I was trying to get at. You have a right and reason to your opinion. But when the above words are used to describe your opinions don't get fussy that someone calls you on how those words sound bitter. They ain't exactly happy condoning accepting words.

__________________

AB517

Og, I hate to say bud this bud, I have dealt with many, many, many people in my day. I am close, very close, and I did it by reading some posts.

"You can assault the notion of free inquiry and skepticism all you want and I'll welcome it and won't indicate your insanity/drug addiction for doing so!"

You do not see it.

I will not speak of this with you or your friend again.

Geshtinnanna,

If I am too pushy I am sorry. Let me know.
In this matter we can only follow our hearts.
Let us try and let our heart lead our legs in this matter and take the next right step.

Thank you my friend

Og

Thanks for the clarification G. I think you're making a mistake in your interpretation. I mean the adjectives I use in their technical definitional sense.

Faith:

When I say that faith is a statement of ignorance, it is not because I am bitter about the faithful. I say it is a statement of ignorance based on what my understanding of the world is from christians, scientists, and other theologians. Faith is necessarily a statement of belief in the face of ignorance. Otherwise it wouldn't be faith.

This could be quite positive. I could, for example, have faith that the sun will rise or that following the scientific method will lead towards truth. This would be me moving forward in well supported ideas, but every morning, I'd be ignorant of the actual state of the sun before I actually saw it or called someone for whom it was already risen. My use of the term ignorance there was technical and accurate. I did not intend for it to sound bitter.

It is a common definition of the term that includes faith as virtuous when you have it (in respect to some concepts) exactly inversely proportional to the amount of evidence you have about the topic in which you have faith. This is necessarily and objectively problematic. Leads to schisms if people identify with concepts that they have no evidence for (see the genocides perpetrated by hebrews in the OT). No bitterness here.

Crutches:

I think the use of this term is objective as well. Beliefs need not be in connection with reality either. They then are the "thing" to which people hold that supports their faith (regardless of evidence). It seems to me that this indicates a crutch. I don't see how this is some sort of controversial statement.


A Child
I was intending the comparison metaphorically to the santa claus myth. Kids believe in it until they grow to a point where they are capable of understanding the notion of the giving spirit of the holidays.. etc... At that point, they can participate in an abstract concept with the rest of society.

This is identical to the relationship between Christians in general and their God. It is a concrete concept (that is literally an absurdity) to which they cast their responsibilities. They act well because a celestial dictator has decreed behavioral norms and punishments for variance from those norms. Furthermore, this celestial parent/dictator knows your every thought and action no matter how private.

Seems like they're subjugating their minds as children to me.


-----

I do not have a distaste for these concepts. I see how faith, belief, and a parent figure can be extremely useful. I know that it is very powerful in the 12 step programs to first give up your control to a higher power in order to escape chemical addictions (trade for psychological ones which are relatively more physically healthy).

I know that in many situations, people feel like they're not in control of things that are happening to them in their life and a belief in an absurdity (technical term here, not something bitter) can bring them great peace. The power of confession and absolution of sin to many guilt ridden folks can be amazing to see.

People could have families with very religious backgrounds and it would just psychologically be inconceivable to not accept what their parents accept (as the result would be being an outcast).

There are side effects, however, of this approach. You are manipulable and not aware of the real source of your own motivations. You are psychologically pliable (see things like Bush's second election where the gay marriage vote pulled out "values voters" which were primarily religious).

Etc etc..

I can understand how you (and others) took my post as bitter. It was not intended to be so. I did not have any specific group or people in mind when I was making those statements. I thought that they were pretty much technically correct uses of terms.

Furthermore, I'm curious. Do you think that faith is NOT a glorification of ignorance? The verse in the bible about "things unseen" seems to basically state that faith is belief in ignorance. Do you think that beliefs are NOT crutches? Do you think that the literal interpretation of a celestial dictator father figure is not an "Absurdity" (in the technical use of the term)?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Derbonic

Ooh. Thats means I am half correct. *party
Your "Def's" seemed a little biased to me. I bet you cheer at your TV screen.

Derbonic

Just bumping this up.

Lets see if we can get a few of the newer members to chime in.

__________________
You can do it your own way, long as its done just how I say.~the hypocrit

Jasen777

Religion - An system of belief about supernatural and/or moral issues that has some sort of organization, often hierarchal.

Faith - Having trust in something. Ex: I have faith my friend will do the right thing. Can also be used as a synonym for Religion. Ex: The Christian faith is....

Belief - What one holds to be true.

Pretend - Make believing something is true, often for play or speculation.

Hope - Wishing for the best or deciding to look on the bright side of things. Also a belief that things will or can improve. Can be used as a synonym of faith.

Theist - Someone who professes belief in god(s).

Atheist - Originally someone who professes unbelief in god(s). Now commonly used for one who rejects any chance that any supernatural claim could be true.

Agnostic - Someone who professes neither belief or disbelief in supernatural claims, often citing the lack of evidence upon which to make such claims.

Deist - Someone who believes that the universe was created by a supernatural force (often a singular deity) and that the supernatural force was thereafter uninvolved with creation.

Honesty - The practice of living so as to not deceive others or yourself. Can also be used to refer to the practice of being open about oneself instead of hiding one's true situation.

Derbonic

Should this be moved to the DEFINITIONS section?

__________________
You can do it your own way, long as its done just how I say.~the hypocrit