shadowind

don't all patterns carry information?

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remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

Og

Information and code are ways that the human brain understands things. They don't have any meaning beyond that. It's a way of describing types of complex systems.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

Can anyone correct me but the big bang started with a singularity of infinite density?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Is this nothing glovesy? So in the begining there was something ... not nothing.

No I can't explain why the rules of chemistry and physics exist. But DNA molecules do appear to follow them.

DNA is no more a code (in the sense that you are implying) than say a gypsum crystal. Gypsum crystals grow in solution, but to grow more effectively in the presence of another gypsum crystal.

People have demonstrated that very simple rules can create extremely complex patterns .... eg a Mandelbrot set.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ATWrMlIKRBk
Choose a different spot on the dive you get a similar but different pattern. Mandelbrot discovered this phenomenon he did not create it.

now answer my question why can't evolution be god's tool?

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

romansh

AB
I'm an agnostic ... occasionally I get off the fence and go and play in the neighbours' yards. ...

I do speculate about the attributes of gods (should they exist) ... I know this is terribly vain and unwise.

I think this for me was a first step towards what passes for wisdom for me.

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Astreja

Well, I'm not particularly interested in launching into a full-blown chemistry course here (especially since I haven't been in a chemistry class since 1973), but will briefly allude to the concept of valence in atoms. One bond for hydrogen, two for oxygen, three for nitrogen and four for carbon.

Because of the consistency of the bonding schema and the high concentrations of H, C, N and O in the universe, these atoms regularly combine to form simple organic compounds such as water, ammonia, methane, ethanol, and the like.

Eventually, through the simple process of sticking together according to the rules of atomic valence, more complex compounds such as amino acids form.

Then amino acids chain together to form polypeptides.

And eventually, you will see a molecule that is capable of making copies of itself using the exact same processes that form things like water molecules.

Self-replicating molecules have already been observed in the laboratory... In 1990.

Given sufficient time and experimental space, I think it virtually inevitable that we'll see life from non-life in a laboratory setting.
Incorrect. Any change in a pattern makes it into a different pattern with a different complement of information. All that really needs to be discussed here is the significance of that new information.

If the recipient of the new pattern does not live to reproduce, it may well have been that the additional information was deleterious to its survival.

However, if the offspring thrives in a way that is statistically significant, survival-positive information has probably been added to its genome.

Og

You must define information. To me, an engineer, information means "unpredictability." The statement "the sun has risen" has virtually no information in it, for example.

This applies in communication theory. All schemes to compress data work to remove all predictability from the data so you only have the most unique and uncorrelated components of the data and then a scheme to rebuild it. Sending 100 number 5s, for example is highly uncompressed data. You could just send "100,5" and you would have a random sequence and compress the data. Outputs from modern cryptography devices are maximally compressed and indistinguishable from noise unless you know what you're looking for.

This is "information." Unpredictability. Look it up.

Is that what you mean? I don't see how this applies to the natural process of environmental pressures rectifying random mutation in genomes.

That sounds more like a "Brownian Ratchet." I have seen microdevices that use passive elements to rectify the random motion of large molecules to sort them by size.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14670059

The above link, for example, is a microdevice that RECTIFIES the RANDOM motion of DNA to sort it into bins based on size. Larger molecules have more inertia, so they don't vibrate as wildly in solution. Smaller molecules get rectified over the tilted bars to slide to one side because they vibrate more wildly.

This is just a simple illustration of the concept.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

I should also add that a message only has information if the communicator and the sender collaborate to understand the message language and transmission form.

Information is entirely a concept in communications. The notion of "increasing information" doesn't really make sense to me in your usage. Please clarify.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

AB517

The wisdom you show is that we do not know.
This discussion is a great example.
The illusion of knowledge is the biggest stumbling block on both sides.

This higher power is not separate from this universe. No magic.
The chemistry of the universe is the chemistry of the universe. Solution chemisty is solution chemistry, nothing more.
They are inseparable.

For now, just do not let the ego think it is equal to anything, not even you.

romansh

Errrr thanks I think

I know it is foolish to try and work out what god must be ... not only do we end up anthropomorphising god but we end up giving god a reflection of our own values.

In my case, should a god exist, it would be pretty much neutral and amoral. And I agree I can't see it being separate from anything.

To the point where my definition of god becomes almost meaningless.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

AB517

That is was I think too.
I am struggling with "meaningless" though.
Like a blade of grass plucked from a well kept lawn?

PS:
Your welcome.
It was a compliment.
From a nobody.

Those that think they are “awake” are the true “sleepers”.
Why follow a sleep walker?