i am a born again, evangelical christian - Page 19

JoeCamaro · 01-18-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddha

My first post came off a bit harsh I confess. The Thing that I am against is that you are positive you are right, your betting your soul on it. But from what I see there is no proof what so ever. The only thing you have to base your beliefs on is a book written a couple thoudsand years ago by a buch of guys. I belive that religion was created to keep the masses in line. I think that most people go nuts if they can't have all the answers so they belive in religion. Well I'd rather be nuts than belive that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

Amen!

Geshtinnanna · 01-18-2008, 11:11 PM

[quote=411314;23837][quote=godlovesyou;19321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywolf90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna

?

...because we can observe this world, and see that spirits in fact exist, and can possess people. this is a prooven phenomenon...

If it's a proven phenomenon, then please prove it.

That is not my post. That post belongs to godlovesyou. Thank you

Apparently the quoting function is on crazy mode

JoeCamaro · 01-18-2008, 11:26 PM

Ok, I believe god and religion and faith is a feeling. When you believe in god and do things as god expects, you feel better, you feel happier because you want to, because is emotional. You send info to your mind saying that god is with you, that you are doing things right and THATS WHY you feel a presence or whatever...Cuz you are creating the whole experience yourself. You feel good about yourself and it reflects. I think it is a very personal desicion to believe or not.
I dont believe, but I do think that believing works. It really works for those wanting it to work. Maybe it is not logical, maybe it is not real (physically real) but is is real for those who really really belive in it.
So i dont see god or jesus as people, but as feelings that make people happy.

I am an agnostic and I believe in evolution. I believe in doing good, not because of the fear of being punished, but because I know other people have feelings and needs and they deserve to be treated as human beings. I do it because I want to.

When I first joined this forums I expected and hoped that respect was going to be present all the time.

Why should we criticize or hurt believers? We as agnostics cant prove a god but we cant unprove it either. Thats the whole point, there is a chance of it being true and there is a chance of it not being true. Why are you all so sure godlovesyou is wrong? whay are all of you so sure god doesnt exist? Then you are not agnostic, you are something else.

Im not trying to defend godlovesyou, Im trying to understand what is going on.

JC

marmalade · 01-19-2008, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCamaro

Ok, I believe god and religion and faith is a feeling. When you believe in god and do things as god expects, you feel better, you feel happier because you want to, because is emotional. You send info to your mind saying that god is with you, that you are doing things right and THATS WHY you feel a presence or whatever...Cuz you are creating the whole experience yourself. You feel good about yourself and it reflects. I think it is a very personal desicion to believe or not.
I dont believe, but I do think that believing works. It really works for those wanting it to work. Maybe it is not logical, maybe it is not real (physically real) but is is real for those who really really belive in it.
So i dont see god or jesus as people, but as feelings that make people happy.

I am an agnostic and I believe in evolution. I believe in doing good, not because of the fear of being punished, but because I know other people have feelings and needs and they deserve to be treated as human beings. I do it because I want to.

When I first joined this forums I expected and hoped that respect was going to be present all the time.

Why should we criticize or hurt believers? We as agnostics cant prove a god but we cant unprove it either. Thats the whole point, there is a chance of it being true and there is a chance of it not being true. Why are you all so sure godlovesyou is wrong? whay are all of you so sure god doesnt exist? Then you are not agnostic, you are something else.

Im not trying to defend godlovesyou, Im trying to understand what is going on.

JC

This is a good attitude to take. I can't say I always feel up to it. I've felt more accepting lately, but I was feeling harshly critical before. My moods change.

I think a believer shouldn't be surprised when they're beliefs are critically challenged on an agnostic forum. Its just the nature of the game. I'm all for feelings, but there is more to life than simply being nice. I prefer niceness most of the time, but I also enjoy a heated debate on occasion. Both can be useful. Its about balance.

Relentless criticalness is a whole other matter. People who are always disagreeing and looking for fault get on my nerves. I'm thin-skinned and very emotional even if I usually hide that side of myself.

I'm trying to learn how to accept people for who they are. This includes people who have beliefs different than me and those who have different ways of relating than me. I'd rather rationally discuss things, but I realize that not everyone idealizes rationality as much as I and I realize others idealize it even more than I. I get tired of rationality at times because it isn't my core sense of self. I have a sense of reality that is far from being primarily rational, and so I realize the same is true for many people especially those of the religious persuasion.

Nonetheless, I don't expect people to simply accept my non-rational experiences, and I will almost always willingly attempt to rationally explain myself as best as I can. And if I'm not being sufficiently rational, I accept any forthcoming criticisms.

Anyone who comes to this board for discussion should realize that rationality is highly valued here. That is just the way it is. Few here are going to accept your personal beliefs and experiences merely because they make sense to you.

When I want to let my non-rational side out, I generally do it on another forum that isn't so focused on the rational. I don't see a problem with this.

I would like it if more agnostics were open to the non-rational because I am a very spiritual person. I don't believe the rational and the non-rational are in conflict. They're just different aspects that exist in every person. An agnostic who tries to be entirely rational is repressing a part of themselves. And a theist who doesn't seek to rationally question their beliefs is missing an important aspect of being human.

AB517 · 01-20-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marmalade

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCamaro

Ok, I believe god and religion and faith is a feeling. When you believe in god and do things as god expects, you feel better, you feel happier because you want to, because is emotional. You send info to your mind saying that god is with you, that you are doing things right and THATS WHY you feel a presence or whatever...Cuz you are creating the whole experience yourself. You feel good about yourself and it reflects. I think it is a very personal desicion to believe or not.
I dont believe, but I do think that believing works. It really works for those wanting it to work. Maybe it is not logical, maybe it is not real (physically real) but is is real for those who really really belive in it.
So i dont see god or jesus as people, but as feelings that make people happy.

I am an agnostic and I believe in evolution. I believe in doing good, not because of the fear of being punished, but because I know other people have feelings and needs and they deserve to be treated as human beings. I do it because I want to.

When I first joined this forums I expected and hoped that respect was going to be present all the time.

Why should we criticize or hurt believers? We as agnostics cant prove a god but we cant unprove it either. Thats the whole point, there is a chance of it being true and there is a chance of it not being true. Why are you all so sure godlovesyou is wrong? whay are all of you so sure god doesnt exist? Then you are not agnostic, you are something else.

Im not trying to defend godlovesyou, Im trying to understand what is going on.

JC

This is a good attitude to take. I can't say I always feel up to it. I've felt more accepting lately, but I was feeling harshly critical before. My moods change.

I think a believer shouldn't be surprised when they're beliefs are critically challenged on an agnostic forum. Its just the nature of the game. I'm all for feelings, but there is more to life than simply being nice. I prefer niceness most of the time, but I also enjoy a heated debate on occasion. Both can be useful. Its about balance.

Relentless criticalness is a whole other matter. People who are always disagreeing and looking for fault get on my nerves. I'm thin-skinned and very emotional even if I usually hide that side of myself.

I'm trying to learn how to accept people for who they are. This includes people who have beliefs different than me and those who have different ways of relating than me. I'd rather rationally discuss things, but I realize that not everyone idealizes rationality as much as I and I realize others idealize it even more than I. I get tired of rationality at times because it isn't my core sense of self. I have a sense of reality that is far from being primarily rational, and so I realize the same is true for many people especially those of the religious persuasion.

Nonetheless, I don't expect people to simply accept my non-rational experiences, and I will almost always willingly attempt to rationally explain myself as best as I can. And if I'm not being sufficiently rational, I accept any forthcoming criticisms.

Anyone who comes to this board for discussion should realize that rationality is highly valued here. That is just the way it is. Few here are going to accept your personal beliefs and experiences merely because they make sense to you.

When I want to let my non-rational side out, I generally do it on another forum that isn't so focused on the rational. I don't see a problem with this.

I would like it if more agnostics were open to the non-rational because I am a very spiritual person. I don't believe the rational and the non-rational are in conflict. They're just different aspects that exist in every person. An agnostic who tries to be entirely rational is repressing a part of themselves. And a theist who doesn't seek to rationally question their beliefs is missing an important aspect of being human.

Last time my non-rational side got out

I found out My 3rd kid was on the way

marmalade · 01-21-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Last time my non-rational side got out

I found out My 3rd kid was on the way

That is what you get for letting your non-rational side out.

I hope you've learned your lesson.

Astreja · 01-21-2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marmalade

I think a believer shouldn't be surprised when they're beliefs are critically challenged on an agnostic forum. Its just the nature of the game.

And yet many devout visitors do give the appearance of being surprised when their views are not automatically accepted as The Truth™ and are not only questioned, but attacked with vigour.

I have a big problem with anyone who comes barging into a forum to insist that we *must* believe what they believe, or face the wrath of some invisible being. I consider that kind of language to be psychological abuse, and it doesn't inspire me to take the believer's claims seriously. Quite the opposite... It's the ultimate turn-off.

JoeCamaro · 01-21-2008, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astreja

Quote:

Originally Posted by marmalade

I think a believer shouldn't be surprised when they're beliefs are critically challenged on an agnostic forum. Its just the nature of the game.

And yet many devout visitors do give the appearance of being surprised when their views are not automatically accepted as The Truth™ and are not only questioned, but attacked with vigour.

I have a big problem with anyone who comes barging into a forum to insist that we *must* believe what they believe, or face the wrath of some invisible being. I consider that kind of language to be psychological abuse, and it doesn't inspire me to take the believer's claims seriously. Quite the opposite... It's the ultimate turn-off.

True

It is as if I went to a Christian forums and try to convince everybody that god doesnt exist...

But I still think that we should show, express, let the people know our ideas in a respectful manner, that way it will reach more people.

Just my 2 cents

411314 · 01-21-2008, 03:56 PM

Somehow, things I quoted ended up being attributed to those who didn't say them. I hope WilliamBlue and Geshtinnanna understand.

**Skepticologist** · 01-21-2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astreja

Quote:

Originally Posted by marmalade

I think a believer shouldn't be surprised when they're beliefs are critically challenged on an agnostic forum. Its just the nature of the game.

And yet many devout visitors do give the appearance of being surprised when their views are not automatically accepted as The Truth™ and are not only questioned, but attacked with vigour.

I have a big problem with anyone who comes barging into a forum to insist that we *must* believe what they believe, or face the wrath of some invisible being. I consider that kind of language to be psychological abuse, and it doesn't inspire me to take the believer's claims seriously. Quite the opposite... It's the ultimate turn-off.

There are a few, but precious few, believers who participate in this forum on an intellectual basis with open minds. I have a lot of respect for such people because they show a lot of courage in opening up their beliefs to the kind of questioning they'll inevitably be subjected to here.

On the other hand, most believers who come here are simply out to earn their merit badges from god for having subjected themselves to what they consider persecution of their beliefs at the hands of us godless ones. I really wish they'd just be content with self-flagellation and leave us to the business of trying to ferret out whatever truth we can glean from a consideration of demonstrable principles.