ThomasHenry

Maybe I should do myself a favor any stop trying to act like a childish idiot.

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A spark of the Divine lies within us all.

T. Henry

tommi atkins

Trawled through a lot of the posts in this thread.

I'm a bit lost as to why you guys n gals want to chase a christian out of the forums. Who the heck are you going to debate with if you scare the Guitar and Jumper crew away?

Skepticologist

With all due respect, those kinds of debates aren't debates at all. When one of the debaters offers nothing but regurgitation of tired old, imminently predictable diatribes based solely on a leap of faith they made for whatever reason, there's nothing of interest to those who rely on logic and reason as the basis of their beliefs.

I still remember my first day in a college biology class when the professor simply stated that religion is outside the realm of science because there is no control group for god; and that, consequently, we would contrain ourselves to considerations of the theory of evolution, for which control groups do exist.

Religion is based on faith which, by definition, has no connection to reason and logic. It's therefore impossible to carry on a meaningful discussion. Fundies show up here from time to time and spout their intellectual pablum until they've been sufficiently persecuted by those of us who demand that philosophical arguments at least make some sense, and then they go back to their flocks wearing their experience here as a badge of courage.

It's a complete waste of time. None of the believers has ever convinced a non-believer, and no non-believer has ever convinced a believer. At best, we've given each other something to think about at some point in the future when we may be more receptive to points of view that are anathema to us at present.

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

tommi atkins

Yeah, sure when the debate is whittled down to a cut and paste of scripture, I agree.
I think it's up to us to move that debate into the realms of reality and just steer the evanies back on track.
Put it like this, I'd rather have a debate with a Christian or a Hindu with them using scripture as their evidence than no debate at all.

revpo

DEBATE is like talking against a stone wall, believe or associate in what you believe, as far as I am concerned the born again and christians, never asked questions, it was filled into them from day one and if you don't believe something terrible will happen, unless one believes.
We will pray for you..pray to who for what....sickness, war, special favors ..never happens friends...the bible says...it was written by many translated by many, changed by many and was not written for a few hundred years...memory..come on......
The believers don't use logic and shy away from logic and flow with the crowd.

Agnostic is a philosophy which is a good one...we asked questions......

byE bye

REVPO

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REVPO/AGNOSTIC CHURCH CLERIC

411314

I can't believe the horrible things that whoever wrote the page that link leads to is willing to justify. Let me address each part of the author's response to the question of how God could send people to Hell:

"The way that question is worded bothers me. Even though it is commonly asked that way, I don't like the way it sounds, because I don't like what it implies. So if you'll allow me to analyze the question before I answer it, I think it will help.


The question seems to imply that God is indulgent and a bit impotent....and that mankind is being taken advantage of, handled cruelly, and treated unfairly - with very little feeling on God's part".

WELL, DUH! It would by "handling cruelly" for a person to push another person into a fire, wouldn't it? How is it okay for God to do the same?

"Almost like God is taking delight in watching people squirm, saying, "Get out of My sight," as He pushes people into hell against their wills."

Well, nobody would chose that knowingly, so yes, it is against our wills.

So if that is what is meant by the question, then that needs to be dealt with first. Suffice it to say, that is not what Scripture teaches.

"But if it's an honest question, where you wrestle with God's loving character and hell's awful consequences, then I would begin by saying that God has established the ground rules. That's His sovereign right."

No, it isn't. Having people tortured for eternity is immoral, period.

"As the Creator of life, His divine rule states that those who believe in His Son will have eternal life with Him. Those who do not believe in His Son will not have eternal life with Him. The believers will have the blessedness of heaven. Those who reject the message must face the punishment of the rejection."

People who genuinely see no evidence of God's existence are not "rejecting" him, anymore than most people are "rejecting" Santa Claus. Besides, just because someone doesn't worship him does NOT give Him the right to let people go to Hell.

"And lest you think God is calloused and unconcerned over that scene, you'll need to return to 2 Peter 3:9, which states:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Never forget that verse! When someone presents to you the idea that God cruelly and gleefully dances about heaven as the last people are dumped against their will into hell, remind them of Peter's words. With patience and grace He offers the gift of eternal life and heaven to all who will accept it. Those who refuse the gift He offers must suffer the consequences, having made their own decision about eternity."

Again, this seems to imply that everyone knows God, Heaven, and Hell all exist and is thinking, "Well, I'm not going to worship Him, even if it means going to Hell" or "I think I'll go to Hell for eternity". Most nonbelievers simply see no evidence of His existence. Besides, the mere fact that someone doesn't "cruelly and gleefully dance" after letting someone be tortured still doesn't justify it. If Hitler didn't "cruelly and gleefuly dance" when throwing Jews into Nazi death camps, does that mean the Holocaust was acceptable? OF COURSE NOT! Niether does the fact that he gives the victims a chance not to be tortured in exchange for doing something they refuse to do.

No, let me change a few words to get a morally equivalent situation:

Q: Why did Hitler send people to Nazi concentration camps.

A: "The way that question is worded bothers me. Even though it is commonly asked that way, I don't like the way it sounds, because I don't like what it implies. So if you'll allow me to analyze the question before I answer it, I think it will help.

The question seems to imply that Hitler was indulgent and a bit impotent....and that the Jews and other victims were being taken advantage of, handled cruelly, and treated unfairly - with very little feeling on Hitler's part.

Almost like Hitler was taking delight in watching people squirm, saying, "Get out of my sight," as he pushed people into Auschwitz and other Nazi death camps against their wills.

So if that is what is meant by the question, then that needs to be dealt with first.

But if it's an honest question, where you wrestle with Hitler's loving character and the awful consequences of the Nazi death camps, then I would begin by saying that Hitler established the ground rules. That was his sovereign right.

As the chancelor of Germany, his rule stated that those non-Jews who cooperated with him would be rewarded. Those who did not cooperate with him would not be rewarded. The people who cooperated would have safety. Those who rejected his policies had to face the punishments of the rejection."

When someone presents to you the idea that Hitler cruelly and gleefully danced about as the last people were dumped against their will into Auschwitz, remind them that with patience and grace he offered the gift of safety to all who would accept it. Those who refused the gift he offered had to suffer the consequences, having made their own decision about the rest of their lives."

411314

[quote=godlovesyou;19308]And why should God be obeyed? Just what gives him the right to expect that? And just how does someone who excercises their free will "deserve hell"? Especially if they can't find any evidence that God exists? Thought crimes are never just. Also, He may not be responsible for our decisions, but he is responsible for how he punishes our decisions. What your saying is rather equivalent to defending the Communist Party of China's crushing of the Tiannamen Square Protests of 1989 by saying "the protesters decided to disobey the Communist Party, and as consequence were run over with tanks. The party was not responsable for THEIR decision, and would not let to do something because the people decided to desobey them. Naturally, all descendence is on the road to being squashed. Each one of them naturally decided to disobey the party, and was fully accountable for the own decisions. so in last instance, its not the party to be held responsable if someone gets squashed, but the protester, which decided to do, what deserves being squashed. But, thanks the party, they provided a escape, that is : If you completely surrender your free will to the Communist Party of China, you can recieve forgiveness and not be squashed.

411314

[quote=godlovesyou;19314]Astreja is right.

Perhaps the Big Bang theory is correct. But even if we didn't/don't know how the universe came to be, that wouldn't make and god the default answer.

Maybe none of them are.

Why not?

Please give me evidence of this. Give me some examples of prophecies and when and where they've been fufiled. Also, why can't parts of the bible be inspired by God while other parts where written by humanity?

you gave the answer. consciousness differs live from non-live.

[quote]

No, plants are considered alive, but there is no evidence that they have consciousness.


Please provide evidence of this. Also, provide reason why some god couldn't have ceased to exist after creating life.

411314

[quote=godlovesyou;19321][quote=greywolf90;19290]If it's a proven phenomenon, then please prove it.

WilliamBlue

FYI, this is not my quote, it belongs to godlovesyou.

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