Geshtinnanna

God isn't a fact so I can't argue for or against it with fact. Sorry.

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Paul

You don't know that.

hell_raiser195

There is an extreme leap in your logic. Just because something exists it doesnt not, and never will mean that an almighty ethreal force such as a deity created it. You have to follow up what you say with logic. Putting forth illogical arguements is pointless. Dont get mean wrong I mean no offence and although I believe you are wrong, it doesnt mean you are. If you want to persuade people of your opinion you have to have a reason for having that opinion.

It is difficult to look at facts in an argument like this because even some people believe that the universe does not exist, and who are we to say they are wrong. How can I be sure that the keyboard Im typing on exists? I cant, it could be my senses tricking me, but logic tells me it does exist.

Logic also tells me
1. that we exist
2. that we were either created or have been here forever

logically the follow up to that would be
1. that there was no beginning, we were never created, so there is no god
2. thatwe were created, by something, by a series of events. It is not logical to say which events because we really have no idea what these events were. Suddenly saying "it was God" is illogical and makes no sense

AB517

I am with Paul

Unfortunately, I think the lack of responses to this thread is indicative of the kind of factual logic we can apply to a NO god (i.e., nothing). I think we all want to know for certain that there is NOT something there, but no amount of science or reasoning can bring us to that certanty.[/quote]

hell_raiser195

[/quote]


This goes without saying because many philisophers for centuries have been trying to answer these questions, but it doesnt mean we cant throw out a few ideas for/against it. We arent trying to find out for definate whether god exists or not, that would be close to impossible. But if you have a good argument for either side then voice it!
I fail to see why this thread is causing problems for people...

AB517

Ok I’ll play.

The question is like asking “What is gravity?”
No one knows, YET. We can describe it to a point, make predictions, and use it. No one knows what it is, YET. I use science to prove God. Someday it will.

So:

I see the big big.
It needed a starting condition. I do not think it went “poof” out of nothing.

I see life:
A collection of atoms that began to replicate. This is not simple replication of a few molecules. Maybe something started it.

DNA:
I see as a running program, solving and mutating to reach something …. To evolve.

Awareness:
A collection of atoms now asks why. Amazing

Matter/awareness:
We see our solar system. What fraction of the mass of the universe is in our solar system?

The universe contains awareness, we are proof of that. What fraction of the universes’ awareness are we? How many levels of life are there?

Spiritual awakenings:

I know it is subjective.
Although different they have a commonality associated with them. The logical fallacy doesn’t work because this is empirical data. It is like turning on a bulb in a group of light bulbs. It’s on.


These are just what I use.
These are the questions that I ask.
I do not know the answers.
These point to a higher power for me

Uncertainty is the key. In quantum mechanics and life. If we and it were sure of every thing that would leave no room for growth … there for it could not be infinite.

Og

False stance. Time is a property of matter and the universe. Indicating "out of" or "before" big bang illustrates a lack of understanding of the science that illustrates that event for you. Saying that the big bang need "come from" something or "out of" nothing illustrates a provincial understanding of the topic (i.e. inertial reference frame from earth at relatively low energy compared to the big bang).

It is the simple replication of a few molecules on an astronomical scale. These few molecules are polyatomic carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and phosphorous. They form a small subset of molecules called lipids, amino acids, nucleic acids, and carbohydrates. These then form another subset of objects (i.e. cell membranes, proteins, DNA, sugar crystals). It's all very simple when broken down into these basic components. They just happen to be arranged in insanely large groups.

I suggest you look at the mathematics of Cellular Automaton (i.e. the physics of highly complex systems with simple underlying rules governing their evolution). Stephen Wolfram wrote the book on the topic. Good mathematical physics going on here. It shows how readily complexity can arise from "a few" basic underlying components and simple rules of evolution of the system.

In fact, DNA is NOT the part that is doing the solving. In fact, DNA tends towards chaos and mutation into nonsense. What does the "solving" is the environment which exerts force on the randomness of the DNA by applying competing forces.

For example, melanin is a product of too much sun in the equatorial regions. Those without it would get cancer and die rapidly. When people moved north out of africa into less sunny regions, there was no such pressure on the melanin protein. Nothing that killed off nonsense mutations in melanin. So DNA actually just went into mutated nonsense and people became whiter. DNA wasn't solving anything. The environment was forcing it to be in its state. DNA is just the clay that the environment molds.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

AB517

hey Og.

you use the word Fact as if you are the end all.

False stance...??
Lake of understanding...??
In fact DNA is ...??
In fact...??
I suggest you look at the mathematics of Cellular Automaton ...??
I do not need to look it up. I know it.

Flat out Og, I just do not like you.
You are way to self centered for me.

Of course it changes with the environment. I know stressors bub.
The math only shows the elegance.

Lecter

hmmm All of this makes sense in my head, I hope I can express it in a manner that would be understood by others.

Universe was created by x.

What is the nature of x? What created x?

If x is everlasting then it doesn't need a creator/origin.
x has to be very powerful in order to create something as great as the universe.
If x is everlasting, then it must be able to sustain itself while nothing else is there. It must be able to exist dependent from time and space.

So what do we know about x thus far?

It is everlasting, powerful, self sufficient, the creator, the first.. and so on.

All of the above are names of God by the way mentioned in the Qur'an, but that's a bit off topic.

Now whether or not x is involved in our lives, answers our prayers, judges us, resurrects us and so on, I think we can learn from that through revelation of x, however here we are faced with two problems:

1. First we have to provide actual proof such revelation comes from x. ( And no, just because your book says so doesn't make it true)

2. The starter of this thread doesn't want to hear about it!

So yeah that's it so far, I'm sure I didn't cover everything I wanted to say so there are gonna be some holes in my arguments, please feel free to show me those holes

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

shammahbn

I'll give it a whirl.

Christianity still exists despite the sort of arguments against it that we see on the internet. It grew despite strong opposition by the Roman empire and no reward for believing in it. It grew in the Roman empire despite there being no sane reason to worship a crucified criminal who was a Jew of all things.

I submit that happened because there's a real God drawing people to Christ and people are having real experiences with this Christ.

Unfortunately, anecdotes aren't facts, either, because I've got a lot of them. The ones that are significant to me are the ones where I was "told" in advance what would happen.

1. My nephew's eyes were infected for a year and a half. I didn't know, because I lived in a different country, and my sister didn't tell me. When she did, we prayed and felt we were answered, but it wasn't all done. Within two weeks I had another letter saying he had all his sight back (one eye had gone blind), but there was a small infection remaining (which healed over time).

2. During the drought earlier this year, I got up for one of our gatherings, and God told me to ask the congregation to pray for rain. I did. One of the ladies stood up and said, "We're taking the kids to the zoo tomorrow, pray it will rain after that." It rained in the parking lot as we were leaving the zoo. (Happened this year, Tuesday, Mar. 27).

3. A few weeks ago, a brother got up in our Sunday meeting to say that he'd long had a burden to preach our Gospel to Native Americans. (We're an unusual group, not your typical American Christians...we have some things in common with Native Americans.) He said he'd always thought about a group like the Hopi indians out in Arizona, but that day God was putting South Dakota on his heart. I got an email that afternoon asking us to come speak to people in South Dakota. (Invitations like that are rare to any location, happening once or twice a year.)

4. A brother prophesied to us that God would send us all over the world and that he would begin spreading our communities. We had one community at the time, ours in West Tennessee. We now have one in Memphis, Providence, and two in...no kidding...Kenya.

I could go on and on and on for days with stories like these. Yes, some prayers don't get answered, but after a while it becomes obvious that the ones that do aren't just coincidence.

And yes, some people's experience with Christ looks powerless. Sadly, most of what is preached in his name is powerless. The way to life is narrow, and there are few that find it. When it's found, though, it is never powerless.

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Shammah
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