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General Religion Discussion about any religious topic. Example, other religious scriptures, Satanism, philosophy etc.


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Old 09-30-2007, 04:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
danarch
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Assault on identity

Assault on identity: You are not who you think you are.
This is a systematic attack on a target's sense of self (also called his identity or ego) and his core belief system. The agent denies everything that makes the target who he is: "You are not a soldier." "You are not a man." "You are not defending freedom." The target is under constant attack for days, weeks or months, to the point that he becomes exhausted, confused and disoriented. In this state, his beliefs seem less solid.

Guilt

Guilt: You are bad.
While the identity crisis is setting in, the agent is simultaneously creating an overwhelming sense of guilt in the target. He repeatedly and mercilessly attacks the subject for any "sin" the target has committed, large or small. He may criticize the target for everything from the "evilness" of his beliefs to the way he eats too slowly. The target begins to feel a general sense of shame, that everything he does is wrong.

Self-betrayal

Self-betrayal: Agree with me that you are bad.
Once the subject is disoriented and drowning in guilt, the agent forces him (either with the threat of physical harm or of continuance of the mental attack) to denounce his family, friends and peers who share the same "wrong" belief system that he holds. This betrayal of his own beliefs and of people he feels a sense of loyalty to increases the shame and loss of identity the target is already experiencing.

Breaking point

Breaking point: Who am I, where am I and what am I supposed to do?
With his identity in crisis, experiencing deep shame and having betrayed what he has always believed in, the target may undergo what in the lay community is referred to as a "nervous breakdown." In psychology, "nervous breakdown" is really just a collection of severe symptoms that can indicate any number of psychological disturbances. It may involve uncontrollable sobbing, deep depression and general disorientation. The target may have lost his grip on reality and have the feeling of being completely lost and alone.

When the target reaches his breaking point, his sense of self is pretty much up for grabs -- he has no clear understanding of who he is or what is happening to him. At this point, the agent sets up the temptation to convert to another belief system that will save the target from his misery.

Leniency

Leniency: I can help you.
With the target in a state of crisis, the agent offers some small kindness or reprieve from the abuse. He may offer the target a drink of water, or take a moment to ask the target what he misses about home. In a state of breakdown resulting from an endless psychological attack, the small kindness seems huge, and the target may experience a sense of relief and gratitude completely out of proportion to the offering, as if the agent has saved his life.

Compulsion to confess

Compulsion to confession: You can help yourself.
For the first time in the brainwashing process, the target is faced with the contrast between the guilt and pain of identity assault and the sudden relief of leniency. The target may feel a desire to reciprocate the kindness offered to him, and at this point, the agent may present the possibility of confession as a means to relieving guilt and pain.

Channeling of guilt

Channeling of guilt: This is why you're in pain.
After weeks or months of assault, confusion, breakdown and moments of leniency, the target's guilt has lost all meaning -- he's not sure what he has done wrong, he just knows he is wrong. This creates something of a blank slate that lets the agent fill in the blanks: He can attach that guilt, that sense of "wrongness, " to whatever he wants. The agent attaches the target's guilt to the belief system the agent is trying to replace. The target comes to believe it is his belief system that is the cause of his shame. The contrast between old and new has been established: The old belief system is associated with psychological (and usually physical) agony; and the new belief system is associated with the possibility of escaping that agony.

Releasing of guilt

Releasing of guilt: It's not me; it's my beliefs.
The embattled target is relieved to learn there is an external cause of his wrongness, that it is not he himself that is inescapably bad -- this means he can escape his wrongness by escaping the wrong belief system. All he has to do is denounce the people and institutions associated with that belief system, and he won't be in pain anymore. The target has the power to release himself from wrongness by confessing to acts associated with his old belief system.
With his full confessions, the target has completed his psychological rejection of his former identity. It is now up to the agent to offer the target a new one.


Progress and harmony

Progress and harmony: If you want, you can choose good.
The agent introduces a new belief system as the path to "good." At this stage, the agent stops the abuse, offering the target physical comfort and mental calm in conjunction with the new belief system. The target is made to feel that it is he who must choose between old and new, giving the target the sense that his fate is in his own hands. The target has already denounced his old belief system in response to leniency and torment, and making a "conscious choice" in favor of the contrasting belief system helps to further relieve his guilt: If he truly believes, then he really didn't betray anyone. The choice is not a difficult one: The new identity is safe and desirable because it is nothing like the one that led to his breakdown.

Final confession and rebirth

Final confession and rebirth: I choose good.
Contrasting the agony of the old with the peacefulness of the new, the target chooses the new identity, clinging to it like a life preserver. He rejects his old belief system and pledges allegiance to the new one that is going to make his life better. At this final stage, there are often rituals or ceremonies to induct the converted target into his new community. This stage has been described by some brainwashing victims as a feeling of "rebirth."


Link


Assault on identity
Children dont really have an identity yet

Guilt
"You are a sinful person who betrayed God"

Self-betrayal
"Yes I am a sinful person"

Breaking point
"I need jesus to forgive the sins i am guilty of"

Leniency
"jesus can forgive ANYTHING just accept him"

Compulsion to confess
"All you need to do is confess your sins to jesus and he shall forgive them all"

Channeling of guilt
"You are or will be in pain because of your sins!"

Releasing of guilt
"I am not a bad person, we all sin, I just need to accept jesus as my saviour"

Progress and harmony
"If i chose jesus, I will not burn"

Final confession and rebirth
"Born again Christian"

all that makes me want to print photocopies and hand out fliers everywhere. make people aware of the religious "evil empire"
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:50 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by danarch View Post
It was YOU who broke into the vatican and stole the top secret priest training handbook!
haha!! nice one!!
Its so true!
The Church is the most corrupt organisation on this sorry little planet!
Although I have to hand it to them, they are clever. Wish Id have thought of that, imagine how rich Id be now. All Id have to do is think up some ridiculous dogma and get people to follow it...
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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It's funny because in order to agree with this you need to go into a very limited and already resentful attitude toward catholicism (since this doesn't apply to all organized faiths and therefor automatically false in that all religions are wrong in this sense)


Assault on identity
Children dont really have an identity yet

What if it is an adult, to think only young children become Christians is an incredibly naive and frankly blind thought to entertain, It was long after my childhood years that I had ended up became Christian.

Guilt
"You are a sinful person who betrayed God"

I've never heard anyone use the word betray before, I've heard disappointed and turned away from at the very most, but thats just from my experience so it could just be a circumstantial problem.

Self-betrayal
"Yes I am a sinful person"

How exactly is this self betrayal? It could easily be equatable to a realization, betrayal would suggest that it is wrong to recognize that you do bad things, I'm sure most people on this forum would agree that sleeping around isn't necessarily the most honorable thing there is to do, sin is just an archaic term for something that is looked at as a generally incorrect choice. Hitting someone over talking things out for example beating them up could be called a sin but at the same time it can also be seen as wrong, I think the importance of the word "sin" has been overplayed to its actual importance. I think it's kind of funny that your attacking catholicism and just for the sake of argument I'm defending it and your playing more importance on sin than I am.

Breaking point
"I need jesus to forgive the sins i am guilty of"

Again this only works with Christianity and not "religion", I can't stress that enough in my argument religion is not wrong it is specific religions and specific doctrines within them. Plus for the sake of your argument I think the above scenario is the braking point and this one is the self betrayal because this one has you realizing and accepting the end solution while this one marks you out as a part of the problem and that I think is a lot more effective a breaking point than this.

Leniency
"jesus can forgive ANYTHING just accept him"

This isn't even entirely accurate within the context of Christianity so I can't see how it works here.
This here works in protestantism the most since the two biggest influences for the many protestant denominations was that
A: Jesus is the savior you must accept him and ask forgiveness
and
B: You need to allow jesus into your daily life so that he can help guide you and to live like he did and do good things to help better the world.
A and B being inseparable and one not working without the other

While in catholicism doing good things is buying your way into heaven.

you see you can't just ask Jesus for forgiveness and he'll forgive anything because the second part of it shows that in order to have him forgive you you needed to have allowed him into your life, you can't just go out and kill ten people ask for forgiveness and be done with it, because killing ten people wasn't acting with Jesus in your life and therefor since both A and B weren't fulfilled at the same time A cannot function. And since A cannot work and B regardless if the were inseparable or not doesn't work without A it just unravels.

Compulsion to confess
"All you need to do is confess your sins to jesus and he shall forgive them all"

Read above

Channeling of guilt
"You are or will be in pain because of your sins!"

If this is the hell bit than thats just apart of the faith as a whole and at this point your just attacking Christianity not the religion which are in my opinion separable and when it gets to that its just a personal problem as far as I can tell.

Releasing of guilt
"I am not a bad person, we all sin, I just need to accept jesus as my saviour"

I'll agree with you on this part here but it isn't necessarily a bad thing and since a person needs to personally make that decision if they make it or not is entirely their choice, if they agree that this is true then I don't see if there is a problem however if they agree to this but see it as untrue their lying to themselves and in which case any problems down the road they are entirely responsible for.


Progress and harmony
"If i chose jesus, I will not burn"

This is a bit over simplifying it to a point of near untruth, in strict catholic doctrine this might be a bit accurate but for loose casual Christianity like most Christians today are this doesn't really apply to the modern incarnation of the faith as a whole, at least from my observations.

Final confession and rebirth
"Born again Christian"

Unless of coarse down the road the person feels as though this isn't right for them and they abandon the cause, a few people might be sad but unless you come from a nazi-esque totalitarian Christian home nobody will be angry, not if they follow the teachings of Christ as Christians should. But otherwise yeah I agree with this statement, but is that necessarily a bad thing.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:03 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danarch View Post
It was YOU who broke into the vatican and stole the top secret priest training handbook!
Haha, made me laugh out loud.
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Old 02-10-2008, 04:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Exactly! Fear is how religion controlls you. For years as a Christian I only submitted because I feared hell. Thanks for your post! SPREAD THE WORD!
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Old 02-10-2008, 05:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDSJap View Post
no takers?
old news.

Can be used for anything
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