Og

I'm currently reading the book "Death by Black Hole" by Neil deGrasse Tyson. He's a prominent astrophysicist and communicator of science to the public. He hosts PBS's NOVA series in some capacity.

He's recounting the spectroscopic analysis of the chemical constituents of interstellar clouds and of stars themselves. There are clear data illustrating the way that distant/young universe (deep space) stars have fewer heavy elements in them and how the newer stars contain more heavy elements such as carbon and iron and such. There is clear spectroscopic data of complex molecules of carbon in interstellar clouds including very long chains containing as many as 22 carbon molecules along with other complex carbon/nitrogen/hydrogen molecules such as the same amino acids that are the building blocks of life as we know it. Even molecules such as adenosine (one of the DNA base pairs) has been detected as forming in interstellar nebula.

I guess this post is mainly directed at sisterX with her "amino acids can't form and evolution is all lies" stance. How do you rectify the prevalence of complex carbon compounds clearly forming in interstellar nurseries with your claim that life is crafted by the hand of god here on earth as something special and unparalleled in the universe?

Modern spectroscopic cosmology seems to indicate that the universe is chock full of the chemical components that make us up in a variety of complex forms. Liquid water creates an environment where material can mix and diffuse and the earth's magnetic field and atmosphere create an environment that produces mild manipulation of carbon compounds (the goldilocks environment that's "just right"). Liquid water also offers a polar environment that rapidly breaks up electrolytes such as sodium chloride (table salt) and produces a rectifying force to sort polar and non-polar carbon compounds (of which there are a wide variety).

Chemistry, from my perspective, seems to embrace the formation of life in all the ways that it has occurred on earth without some non-physical act that goes against the nature of the universe (i.e. supernatural intervention).

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mary

wow, thats actually pretty interesting. I think there is life on other planets, even in the form of bacteria/microorganisms etc.

im grateful you mentioned that they have found adenosine. i think thats the first indication that there is infact life on other planets. Genetic info is contained within DNA (and DNA consists of adenosine and the other bases) so why else would there be a DNA base?

interesting! thanks for mentioning this!

Og

Because it's a stable conformation of atoms that are abundant in the universe. That it exists has nothing to do with the presence of what we call "life." The notion that we are somehow different from non-life in a cosmic sense is wrong.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

TheSocialistAlliance

In your statement you mentioned; "Modern spectroscopic cosmology seems to indicate that the universe is chock full of the chemical components that make us up in a variety of complex forms".

I feel though that your discussion leaves many questions begging here. Essentially because there really isn't from what I have read in your article much tangible proof that these molecules form in interstellar space.

It's no surprise really that carbons form bonds with hydrogen beyond our planet's biosphere...essentially because hydrogen accounts for 98% of a star's chemical structure and is the most abundant element in the universe. Also because H's can easily form 4 bonds with a Carbon atom, (which Carbons prefer) because Carbon has 4 valence electrons in it's shell, and each Hydrogen donates one electron - meaning Carbon is in a thermodynamically favourable energy state.

Secondly, just because a carbon compound is organic does not mean it's necessarily going to form even greter C-H chains with Nitrogen or Oxygen to produce amino-acids and eventually produce life...essentially because amino-acids have complex metabolic functions, they too require energy for their metabolic synthesis, mostly cAMP and inorganic Phosphate.

Also, interstellar space is a harsh environment for amino-acids such as Adenosine, and I would appreciate it if you could point out how this compound with a biological half-life of 10 seconds could be present in these conditions.

There are many other important biochemicals that are essential in the cellular & metabolic processes that catalyze the life cycle of even the simplest archaeobacterial life-forms. These include;

Peptides | Amino acids | Nucleic acids | Carbohydrates | Lipids | Terpenes | Carotenoids | Tetrapyrroles | Enzyme cofactors | Steroids | Flavonoids | Alkaloids | Polyketides | Glycosides

To complicate matters even further you need genetic material to form even the simplest organisms, none of which are discovered in interstellar space, for exmaple RNA.

Ribonucleic acids: RNA | mRNA | piRNA | tRNA | rRNA | ncRNA | gRNA | shRNA | siRNA | snRNA | miRNA | snoRNA

Then to cap off the stages of life you need other genetic factors to form basic single-celled organisms.

Deoxyribonucleic acids: DNA | mtDNA | cDNA | plasmid | Cosmid | BAC | YAC | HAC

Whilst I embrace a more scientific perspective when delving into the question of the origins of life on this planet, I feel that your article provides limited insight into answering this fundamental question.

pseudonous

Og, I have similar questions to TheSocialAlliances's. Just how much does this book go into the physical conditions in an interstellar cloud? Does it discuss the chemistry in the cloud beyond giving an elemental analysis? If it is fairly heavy on chemistry I will probably buy it.

Og

The book goes into the details of interstellar clouds quite a bit. You can also look at older clouds (closer) versus younger clouds (farther away) and tell the makeup of them. It talks about how most clouds are ionized gases with huge radiation, but there are some where inner areas are protected from the damaging cosmic radiation and complex molecules are able to form.

I suggest getting the book or others on cosmology and spectroscopy. I agree that modern life requires all of those modified versions of RNA and DNA. But really, each one of those things you listed is just a string of nucleotides bound together.

Also, mRNA, piRNA, tRNA, etc are just way of describing the functions of sequences of RNA. They're not distinctly different from the nucleotides and other molecules that can be seen in interstellar clouds.

They're components of modern highly complex life on earth, but need not be the elements of precursor life forms. Viruses, for example, may not have any of those complex sequence structures. HIV, for example, has a coding RNA and an RNA reverse transcriptase to convert the RNA into DNA.

That these sequences have formed on earth is a product of the environment of earth and the abundance of water. That the fundamental components of these systems exist elsewhere in the universe is a good indication that there's a high probability of life elsewhere. It's also a good demonstration of the foundation for what some people call "abiogenesis"..

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Traveller

Please go and look up information on organic chemistry and cell biology. A few of you understand the basics. One place to look is www.pubmed.org for cell biology info. Search by book or journals. If you are looking for peer reviewed articles, web of science through any university library website should do the trick. The book The Cell is a really good book and should be found on pubmed.

www.organic-chemistry.org is also a good resource for those just getting started.

kjk437

This conversation is one of those times in which I was well versed in chemistry and biology...

Anyone wants to start a math conversation, I'll be another thread...

*cries*

pseudonous

Are you refering to The Cell A Molecular Approach by Cooper?

jaej

Yeah, I skipped chem in high school and went straight to AP physics.....

bad move

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