Chapstiquelova

why is it sooooo dumb and un-logical that i believe that?

__________________
Fool for Christ - 1 corinthians 4:10

1 Timothy 4:12
"Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith, and in purity.

John 15:18-21
http://www.flashdemo.net/gallery/wake/index.htm

Armel P

Because there is no reason to believe it. There is no evidence that shows it is something worth believing. The non-theists on the board have said this a million times yet it doesn't sink in. Believing something for which there is no evidence is illogical. There is no way around that. If you want to have faith, fine, have it. But that is what it is. Faith: believing without evidence. So don't act like there is a logical reason for you to believe anything a religion tells you because there isn't.

__________________
Aspiring Memetic Engineer

Og

It is NOT dumb and Un-logical to believe that. There are many reasons that it is useful as an opiate for those who just want to be soldiers and blahh their way through life.

If you want to claim it as a scientific fact and start participating in the NEW world of reason and enlightenment (i.e. that has been developing since the renaissance in spite of the clay man beliefs) then you acknowledge that it is ridiculous. Man is not made from clay. Man is made from DNA, sexual reproduction, and evolution.

It is a metaphor. Taking it as literal fact and believing it is ridiculous.

How do you not get this? It's like some sort of psychotic episode. People realize the value of saying that something is scientifically true because they see the cool results of it all around them. But they don't want to apply it to their belief structure because that would require a major reshaping of their life. So they end up being walking contradictions and this is the problem that we face in our society today.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

sisterX

Og so how would interpret that 'metaphore'?

The Quran tells me the FIRST man was created from clay and his offspring from sexual reproduction.
The Quran does not contradict with modern science but confirms it.
The theory of evolution makes sense in a lot of ways but it does not provide a detailed account of the emergence of the complex organs, structures, and mechanisms observed in all living forms.
For example og, lets say for a structure to adapt to an enviroment it needs to make two changes. These changes may be two point mutations or two two modifications to two already existing structures that do different tasks and which will make them come together to perform a new function. The chances of these two changes taking place simultaneously are very slim even by the theories of neo-darwinism. Furthermore, serial change, one after the other does not solve the problem and maybe even cause a problem for the existance of the structure.
The Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution appeals to a series of slight successive variations under the presumption that, at every step, it is more likely that the occurring change would be beneficial to the organism, or at least not harmful. If that is the case, then it means that fitness as a function of the genetic makeup of the organism has a very special form of dependence that requires an explanation of its own. Which has not been given!

Og

I'm not your textbook. Evolution is a complex process with multiple competing pressures in a highly dynamic environment. Evolution moving forward has absolutely nothing to do with improving a species.

It is certainly not a serial process. It is a complex motion that is in no way linear and in no way one dimensional.

No. Man was not made out of clay and sexual reproduction developed long before primates. Man is not clay. Man is a complex biological organism. Get yourself a microscope!

The metaphor speaks to man being created out of the same stuff as the world. Clay is part of a very old pottery process so it's part of how people of the time describe construction. It has NOTHING to do with the physical material of clay. It has to do with the relevance of the act of making things from clay to the population that generated the myth.

That's what the metaphor means. Metaphors are expressions of ideas that are complex. The metaphors are in TERMS of the status of the civilization that produces them.

You have either been fooled out of the notion of a metaphor or have never connected with it. The Quran is a metaphor. I do not mean to tell you that it is false. LITERALLY, it is. It is based on an incorrect cosmology from a civilization that is very alien to ours. But being literally false is irrelevant when looking at the content of the metaphorical message.

Unfortunately, you and others cannot see the forest for the trees. The literal interpretation of the story is ridiculous in terms of today's world with a completely different (globalized) community and an utterly and fundamentally different cosmology (NOT geocentric). The elementary ideas that the religion incorporates are TIMELESS. But they are missed in this STUPID fight over the literal truth of the metaphors. This fight which is utterly irrelevant and in which people are killed and in which people find identity.

Wake up and become a true human being. Realize that the images of the gods and demons are YOU looking in a mirror. When you find identity with the myth is when you truly become alive. When you find identity with allah or christ or buddha... That's enlightenment.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Armel P

You should read The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, and maybe even The Extended Phenotype. I think you'd find Dawkins's explanations quite satisfying in this regard.

__________________
Aspiring Memetic Engineer

jaej

Not sure where you learned this, or if you're just making it up, but that's not evolution at all. Evolution is that the animals WITH the beneficial traits survive more than those without, and live to reproduce; it has nothing to do with the probability of usefulness.

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

sisterX

Trust me Jaej I'm not making it up.
Where do you suppose the 'animals' came from? Did they appear out of nowhere?

jaej

...................

Let me reiterate: evolution has nothing to do with the probability of the change being beneficial. Absolutely none. It merely states that the animals surviving have the beneficial mutations, and are thus more able to survive than those without the trait. That's pretty watered down, but I guess that's natural selection in a nutshell.

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

lauraclay

Where did clay come from? Did it appear out of nowhere? If you look at the clay thing as a metaphor though, it makes sense. There are different types of clay in different parts of the world: different races. Clay is only found near rivers: live originated near water. Clay can be formed to become useful: so can man. I think I remember you saying something about the organic/chemical make up of man and clay, or wait, was it dust? But anyway, if man came from clay, where is the evidence, chemically? I know you think the Quran reinforces modern science, so what does this reinforce?

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.