sisterX

OG maybe, but I could say that YOUR sight is limited in the sense that you only believe in what you can observe (probably why you are so observant of the natural world and science)
How do you know a falling tree makes a sound if you werent there to hear it? How do you know mitosis takes place when you are not looking down the microscope? You dont. All you know is what you observe.
God is there because the universe, the world, animals, human beings, it's all too complicated to come into existence through trial and error.

Og

Odd.

Isn't this a belief followed by an observation that you use as justification for the belief?

How is this not utterly contradictory on your part?

You make claims about real things (i.e. universe, world, animals, humans, etc) about their complexity and processes. How are you making these claims of the NATURAL WORLD? You make a definitive statement that has been made many times before and has resulted in the termination of a line of inquiry.

Just because you perceive the world as complicated and call the source of that Complexity God doesn't really mean much since you seem to, in the same breath, denounce our attempts to understand that complexity as petty.

The bottom line is that you've taken metaphor as literal fact. So has most of the world. And its unfortunate that it's reduced to a question of belief or non-belief in a concept which is demonstrably false. If your religion was healthy, it would adapt and expand with our understanding of cosmology. That is what science has done. Science is the healthy religion. Your "religion" is a relic.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

sisterX

OG what I was saying was, if you only choose to believe in the existence of the things you can observe, while acknowledging that you cannot observe all things at all times, you must then acknoledge that although you may not be able to perceive God with the same clarity as you perceive things in the natural world (as apposed to the supernatural world), there must be a concious, intelligent designer, as the complexity of the cosmos makes it difficult to assume it all came about through trial and error.

sisterX

You say religions do not adapt. But you are wrong. I can only speak for islam and it does adapt to advances in science and technology and welcomes it. However the foundations of the religion cannot change.

Armel P

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Aspiring Memetic Engineer

Og

This is a claim. Why does the complexity of the cosmos make it difficult to understand natural selection? What do you know about the complexity of the cosmos that makes you feel justified in making this claim? Or are you just making the claim to justify something else?

False. Every effect is a confluence of events of all effects in all time. You, for example, are an expression of your past up to this point (i.e. observing you is observing something about all of the events that went in to bringing you to this point).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Armel P

That is absurd. If you accept that species can evolve from other simpler species and do actually understand evolution, there is absolutely no reason for you to believe in the hand of God except that you were told to believe it.

That is an illogical statement. One of the biggest and most used fallacies. I can tell you plenty of things you can't disprove; that doesn't make them true. Can you disprove the statement that the only way to get into heaven is to eat pasta? No. But it is ridiculous for obvious reasons. There is absolutely no reason to believe it. You can't believe in all of the infinite number of statements that can be made and not disproven. This is so blatantly obvious and I can't understand why people don't get it.

Let go of this stupid religion. It's a disgusting festering disease and flagrant mockery of the potential of the human mind.

__________________
Aspiring Memetic Engineer

sisterX

By trail and error I dont mean natural selection, unless natural selection can be applied to space-time continuum!
Your view is that things can exist without being percieved because, as you put it, you can observe the effect even if you cannot observe the thing causing the effect. Right?
However you are selective in applying this theory since you dont apply it to the existance of God. You contradict yourself by saying God is an illusion since He cannot be perceived.

Armel P

Incredible. You have no idea what you're talking about.

__________________
Aspiring Memetic Engineer

Og

The fact that the universe exists instead of not existing is a mystery to which we currently can not speak. We don't even know if "a cause of the universe" is a valid question.

When I said YOUR concept of god was an illusion it was because I was referring to the illusion that we have that there are individual agents in the universe that are causes without effects (i.e. free will, the ability to choose right/wrong). Allah/Yahweh are totally wrapped up in this notion.

Einstein's god was the mystery of which I spoke. The western god is PUNY compared to that mystery. An illusion derived from our ignorance.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are