JerryAgent

Hello, I am new to these forums, but I look forward to getting to know all of you. I'll say right now I believe in Creationism.

One thing about Evolution has always bugged me. What inspired those first few molecules to magically come together and form life? The chances have been calculated before, and it is almost statisticall impossible.

To build on that, if life happened in the last few billion years by chance, simply a single-celled organism, why isn't it sill happening? It happened once, we should still have all these protozoans and what-not being randomly generated. Instead we just have fossils of them from long ago. It happened once, shouldn't it still be happening?

I know evolution is about the progression of life, and that single celled organisms are considered so like 4 billion years ago, but if they could survive in those rapdily changing global conditions, today should be a cakewalk for them.

And I have one more thing you guys can mull over. Why couldn't God have created the Earth with a history? As in, he could have put billion year old fossils in the Earth 10,000 years ago and we wouldn't know the difference. Think of it as evolution would have things be, and then cut off all time up to the last oh... 30,000 years and start everything from there. Does that make sense? You would have all evidence of an old Earth. Remember God is not constrained by time.

Any input would be much appreciated, thanks!

Og

This sounds like an amazing task! Who did this? What parameters did they include? What size of the universe did they use? How many possible places where liquid water exists did they estimate? Can you give any more details?

Also, have you ever looked at the mathematical toys called cellular automaton? Particular with John Conway's Game of Life? These are marvelously fun simply systems showing how organic looking behavior can arise out of the most basic logical constructs with a give set of rules governing their growth.

Hrm.. That's a pretty tall order. Not much you can say to that I guess other than "why?"..... This sounds like a desperate stretch to try and hold onto a belief system versus a logical conclusion in the face of evidence.

Do you think that god really made the universe around the earth and that he just made it look like (to us) that the sun is the center of the solar system?

I really think your belief system is completely out of place in the modern era. It must adapt or there's going to be many psychotic episodes and substance abuse in people who can't catch up to what humanity is discovering

Welcome to the forums.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

The An-Jel

Who says Jerry YOUR God exists at all? Only to you personally, your personal God.

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"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

JerryAgent

No I can't, and neither can you or anyobdy else so I guess that is a moot point.

Theoretically that is possible. Is it realistically possible?

Isn't evolution all one big "what if?" There has been not a single SOLID piece of RELIABLE evidence stating that evolution is true. There have been things that don't fit into the formula and considered by some to DISPROVE it. As for Creationism, there is no solid and reliable evidence proving it, and there is nothing to completely disprove it.

Point is, the Evolution vs Creationism debate is mostly "why's" and "what-if's."

Take a wider perspective here. Who are you to tell me that my belief is out of place? In my belief you are completely out of place. What the so called "modern society" lacks is faith. What YOU lack is faith in everything but yourself. My personal definition of a belief is that it requires some kind of faith in the unknown.

Are you afraid to commit to the unknown? Is that it? Fear?

Science does not and can not prove everything. That is why you have faith. Instead of filling in those empty spaces with theories and speculations, you can have faith.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome

Who says He doesn't exist? Amazing that technology and science hasn't disproved him yet.

History says he exists, prophecies being fulfilled says he exists, miracles that defy all science say he exists, what is there to say he doesn't exist? People. Hard thing to build a religion/belief off of people.

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I would rather believe in God and find out He doesn't exist than not believe in God and find out He does.

mister_lister

Which history, Judeo-Christian? There are lots of concepts of the divine through out the world AND THEY ALL DISAGREE on what exactly the divine is. People tend to want simple, easy to understand explanations. If you study religions (plural) you will see that most deal with the same questions and come to differing conclusions, because they are not based on logical deduction but casual reasoning.

How can you prove that any prophecy in the Bible was fulfilled with real evidence? You can not. What you and other religious people do is take a book as literal fact and use it as evidence. This is equivalent to using DC Comics to proove that Superman exists and has powers beyond mortal men.

It is very EASY to build religions off of people. Simply coming across with authority with a message impresses many, especially the uneducated or unsophisticated. Really all that religions and belief systems of the divine are is FICTION preported to be NON-FICTION. They are stories to explain what is unknown, it just so happens some have been taken literally and some religions have been extremely bold with their "stories". I'm sure there is at least one religion you believe to be fake, if one is, why is not yours as well?

I agree with OG we are in a critical age, where religion is more of a detriment to societies than a benefit. My Christian experience ended in psychosis, for which I take medication and will have to until I die (or there is a cure). If you take every thing in a religious text as literal you are well on the path of delusion and possible further mental illness. Religion is extremely dangerous, just look at what it is doing in the middle east. In part of our history religion helped us, but we have better tools to answer many questions.

If you want to believe in the Divine, that is your choice. I will believe in things which are proven to exist, which are substantiated with evidences (plural) beyond one source or work of fiction.

Sure things happen which we call "miracles", that does not mean they are from a divine source, that is a leap to a conclusion with out evidence. Life is full of coincidence and unexplainable happenings, but to conclude there is some "magical sky daddy" orchestrating behind the scenes is a total leap from logic. Just because a person has cancer one day and the next does not, does not mean that person was cured by God - it means that person had cancer and the next day did not. Any conclusion beyond that without evidence is pure speculation.

The trouble with the whole concept of debating creationism and evolution is that sheer amount of ignorance most people have about science in general and the scientific method in particuliar. Also, some people assert things they have no real actual evidence for, they were told this or that instead of researching it themselves. Once someone grasps the scientific method and understands it's applications and implications, there is really not much of an argument left.

Of course there are those that will use science to prove santa clause comes December 25 of every year in America and OF COURSE there will be people who believe it -thats creationism for you. Creationism is an abuse of science, the hypothesis arrived at all WRONG. Prove YOUR God exists first before you use him to explain the origin of life. Stop pointing at a work of FICTION and utilizing that as basis. It's like saying God parked a truck in my driveway, because a complete stranger wrote me a letter and told me God did.

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"The trouble is not with what we don't know, it is with what we think we know that just ain't so". ~ Mark Twain

Noscura

Well, I got a testweek two weeks from now, and one of the things we need to learn about for Biology is eco-systems. When life was first created, there was no/hardly O2 in the air. It was all stuck to other molecules. That's why the DNA/RNA back then was able to survive, but life evolved into plants that could bring O2 in the air. That way, they made another start impossible. In our current age it would dissolve almost immediataly.

Noscura.

Noscura

but then again, I guess you could call it something I only got from schoolbooks, so... ^^

Og

Jerry, have you done any work in molecular biology or in zoology or in behavioral physiology or in genetics and development. Have you done it in a well funded lab withe tools available to modern biologists and biomedical engineers?

You seem to make a lot of claims about the state of evolutionary theory. I'm just wondering how much you've looked at the state of biochemistry and the stability of molecular configurations. Do you know about cell membranes and entropy and stable configurations of molecules?

What do you know about physical chemistry? Anything? These aren't just made up schools of thought. They do not exist because it was against the rules to question them for 1200 years (and if you did, you'd get killed).

Seems like most people who criticize evolution are utterly unqualified to do so and are completely unaware of the critical eye that modern scientists bring to bear on the problem.

The irony is that people want to bring a quasi-skeptical approach to the science that has produced evolution. I say quasi because they do not really use it, they use this faux skepticism that only questions things that aren't in line with their dogmaticly established view that are necessary for their ideas of being alive (i.e. if creation is wrong then jesus was just a metaphor).

It's unfortunate that you don't know more about the body of evidence that evolution describes. Evolution is not a claim. Its not a "what if." Evolution is simply a statement of a body of evidence. There are holes and there are unknown things in the world. And at those holes, you will find the full force of modern science trying to shine light into the depths to discern what is real and what is not.

There is no debate about creation vs evolution. There is only the creationist trying to reconcile his world view. Science produces modern medicine and builds bridges and computers and the internet (That they certainly believe exist and often use and take for granted). So they pick and choose. They post on internet forums using computers that utilize all sorts of quantum mechanical calculations (i.e. semiconductor properties) and then reject the expressions of modern science when they come into obvious conflict with the belief system.

This is called a self reinforcing delusional psychosis. It's well understood.

This a la carte style of selecting what products of modern science you accept is what I was referring to when I was saying that this approach can not work in the modern world.

There are certainly details that we do not understand. But the mountain of evidence that supports evolution is impossible to disregard unless you're just trying to reinforce your own delusions.

So, before jumping into a conversation about evolution, please respond with how much you've studied on the topics of molecular genetics and behavioral physiology (i.e. the two main fields that express both genetic variation and then the force of natural selection). Then, please tell me exactly what it is about physical chemistry and thermodynamics (particularly in the driving force of entropy on biochemical configuratoions) that you don't agree with.

Anything else is just cloud gazing.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

The An-Jel

Just to let you know it isn't about disproving YOUR God necessarily at all. Science simply wants the truth no matter how ugly it gets. True Scientists do anyway. Lots of good scientists do have their own philosophical, social, and monetary reasons for perverting the things they learn, one of the reasons I got sick of the university and some of the professors I was learning from was this kind of thing.

Nothing in science has disproved any form of deity yet whatever form it might take but nothing has proved that any deity exists either!

Og I don't quite understand what you mean by this:

I am curious however... is it killed or just not exist?

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Og

I was referring to the dark ages in europe.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are