jaej

Here we go Faith.

You want proof, undeniable, irrevocable proof of genetic mutation and natural selection? Fine.

I'm certain you've heard talk of the gay gene. Despite what I'm sure you've heard in church, the gay gene is a reality. It has been documented in something like 30 species. Now, I'm sure what you've been told in church is 'how can a "gay gene" be possible? there is no way for it to be spread/inherited.' Am I wrong? I think not.

Anyway, the reason the gay gene occurs is because of random genetic mutation. The reason it is not spread is, I think, obvious, even for you. How could the gene be passed down if homosexuals cannot reproduce? So the gene continues to occur, randomly.

Not sure if I explained this well, and I'm sure you have some bible verse you think proves me wrong, but I tried.

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Og

Sickle cell anemia confers resistance to malaria. And has been selected for highly in africa amongst blacks where a child dies of malaria every 30 seconds.

MRSA is a highly resistant form of staph bacteria very common in hospital. A super bug created by natural selection during the application of antibiotics over the last century.

There are also highly resistant strains of TB.

In addition to this, there are anti-aids therapies where the patient is taken off of medication so that the non-drug resistant strain may regain a foothold in the body and beat out the drug resistant strain for resources. Once this happens, the patient is put back on meds. So evolution and natural selection is actually USED in the body to fight disease.

These are just a few examples of evolution working within the lifetimes of many people who are alive today (if that's what faith needs).

This can, obviously be denied too by an irrational like faith. All that that demonstrates is crazyness.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

This is what you need to do. They'll throw all these little things that appear as inconsistencies or as contrary to common sense (common being the operative word). They say things like "how'd a fish just grow arms?" or to quote faith in this thread:

They make ridiculously oversimplified statements and then twist them so that they don't sound cool to normal non-scientist people. For example, the above statement is completely out of touch with what the modern theory of evolution claims.

Big bang does not claim that it came from a cell, but a singularity and it doesn't even claim that as there's no way of ever illustrating this given the current state of physics. But we've done a helluva lot better job at illustrating the origin of the universe than genesis ever did. Genesis speaks to the origin of human consciousness.

People that don't have the first clue what a metaphor is are self contradictory. They probably use santa claus with their kids at the same time.

There was no "accident" about the world coming into being. It was the slow and inevitable hand of random fluctuations and massive amounts of time.

Science does not claim that other planets are "barren wastelands." Space exploration has illustrated how some planets are that way and that's as far as they go. Look up the Drake Equation if you want a scientific illustration of what most astrobiologists will say about the high probability of life "out there."

The "monkeys come out of a little tadpole thing" comment is like my "fish grow feet" thing and shows that the person is completely ignorant of the timescales and processes involved in the approach.

And finally, the idea that today's monkeys are 100% identical with the common ancestor that we share is idiotic. Again, illustrating a complete lack of understanding of the science or what the theory expresses.


So I continue to say: "More power to you guys!"

Keep on bashing your ideas of evolution and discrediting them. These "Creationists" certainly do not hold the basic framework for the actual scientific theory of evolution. Their ideas are manipulated to the point of making it appear idiotic in the face of their claims. And that's fine. This is the way the argument works. They have an argument with themselves. Evolution and all the rest of science moves forward with a huge body of evidence that can't be denied.

As I've said earlier. Science doesn't do debates. Science doesn't do "both sides of the argument" as Bush would have you believe. Science only deals with the evidence. That's all.

So, faith, continue in your little circular bubble where you create your idea of evolution so you have something to attack. Keep tilting your head at the windmills. It's the only way you can preserve your violent and self hating way of life.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

In reference to this comment from the original poster, I'll ask a few things:

Do you know about the science of complexity arising from simple systems? Have you checked out the cellular automaton page on wikipedia and see how an easily calculable linear and binary cellular automaton creates a pattern identical to that found on a biological shell?

What about complex fractals like the mandelbrot set?

Have you checked out stephen wolfram's book titled "A New Kind of Science?" He's probably the greatest mathematical physicist of our time and has written symbolic math software used across all of physics (www.wolfram.com). This book addresses much of the science of complex systems arising out of simple underlying rules.

There are many many examples of simple systems producing complex behaviors just due to their underlying rules that govern their behavior. I somehow doubt that these were taken into account when this "calculation" was made.

Come on. Aren't you creationists going to throw up anything substantial here? Or is it just going to be the good old "god made it so it looks this way but it really isn't" method of sticking your head in a box?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Faith

Whats this you give me? The "gay gene?

The scientific basis the homosexual community uses to prove the "gay"-gene theory are two different studies conducted in 1993 and 1995. The studies found a specific marker in the X chromosome that links to homosexuality in men.

In 1993, biologist Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute found that in 40 pairs of homosexual brothers, 33 of them had the same set of DNA sequences in a part of the chromosome called, "Xq28."

This has caused many homosexual leaders to proclaim this "evidence" and demand respect and acceptance of homosexuality because of this apparent genetic trait.

However, in late June of 1995, reports were confirmed that Dean Hamer was being investigated by the Office of Research Integrity at the Department of Health and Human Services. Reports found that Hamer may have selectively reported his research and data – which has led many to question the credibility of his research.

Furthermore, in the late '90s, a team of researchers at the University of Western Ontario in Canada found no trace or evidence of the "gay" gene in homosexual men. The study found that the region of the X chromosome known as "Xq28" has nothing to do with the sexual "orientation" of a person.

Neurologist George Rice studied the DNA of 52 pairs of homosexual brothers and found that their Xq28 sequences were no more similar than what might happen from sheer chance.

Despite the debunking of evidence to back the "gay"-gene theory, homosexual advocates continue to use the out-dated evidence to promote the existence of a homosexual genetic trait.

Much more evidence can be provided. Identical twins, for instance, share the same set of chromosomal patterns. Therefore, if one twin's DNA has a homosexual genetic trait, then it is inevitable that both twins will be homosexuals. However, that is not the case with all twins. When one twin is homosexual, the probability of the other identical twin being homosexual is 50 percent. Thus, the "gay"-gene theory is, once again, debunked by using logical, scientific research.

Still, there is even more evidence against homosexual genes. If homosexuality is, indeed – despite other evidence – a genetic trait, that gene would eventually be ousted from the gene pool because homosexuals tend not to reproduce. Instead, homosexuality has appeared in civilizations across time. In some parts of the world, homosexuality flourishes, but in other parts of the world, homosexuality is not present.

Additionally, if "gay"-gene theory were true, it would be next to impossible to change the lifestyle to heterosexuality. However, it is not impossible to change sexual orientations – Stephen Bennett is a great example, and so are the thousands of others who have come out of homosexuality.

With this incredible load of evidence mounting up against the "gay"-gene theory, it would be safe to say that homosexuality is actually not something one is born with, but a choice.

Instead of using hard evidence and facts, the homosexual community has stooped so low as to use media to force feed this unproven theory as fact in order to advance their agenda.

Og

OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH MY!

The IRONY DRIPS from this sentence! Particularly coming from a militant christian self loather.

People do not ultimately have choice. This is obvious to anyone who wants to really look at the question. Saying that homosexuality is a choice is demonstrably false. I also doubt it's as simple as a specific gene. I'd imagine that it's influenced by genetics and then there is a strong social component. But people have feet fetishes, for example because of neural crosstalk in pleasure and feet sensory centers in their brain (they're right next door). So all sorts of sexual behavior is linked to brain structure and genetics.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

Faith! you are the most self contradicting nut job I believe I have ever had the privilege of interacting with for any reasonable amount of time.

You pick and choose science when it fits your belief structure that's already in place and reinforced by the bible. That entire thread was a contradiction to every "no doubting" post you've ever thrown up.

Oh my... logical, scientific research enough to debunk ideas for you? Hasn't seemed that way in the past. In fact you've railed against it and wiggled and squirmed and screamed about it and beat "logical, scientific research" as hard as you can with your version of the bible.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that creationists create an opponent to fight at. They've got this crazy internal self conflict. They realize the immense value of the scientific approach but are SCARED TO DEATH to embrace it fully because their current system of thought has them cowering in a corner of their brains afraid to take responsibility for any of their actions.

But in any rate, this comment about logical, scientific research just made me smile. That entire response of yours was just chock full of goodness.

It's ok for me now. As I've always said, you and I are both in the garden of eden all the time. The only difference is that you've closed your eyes and painted a horrible picture on the inside of your eye lids. This post you just made illustrates, perfectly, that you know, deep down, that you're there too.

Good for you, bro.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Faith

When you said, "you are the most self contradicting nut job I believe I have ever had the privilege of interacting with for any reasonable amount of time", you really didn't consider what you were saying. You are being hypocritical. Only valid science for you is science which goes against God and Christ and anything to do with. It is wrong and there must be an alternative.

Technically, neither you or me is a hypocrit if you really think about it Og, because both of us have accepted what we have by faith, just you are in denial that it is faith by which you have accepted evolution. Some things promote evolution, some things promote God, evolution is pure science, God is spirit, but he has to do with science because of the fact commonly denied, He created it. But you have never actually observed a monkey in the process of evolution, I have never seen God. But I have seen the things God has created, but this is not what I need for proof. I have faith in God, I have accepted God and trust everything he says, you do not. You have faith in evolution, although you have never observed a monkey in the process of evolution, but you have faith that evolution is in fact true.

One thing I can at least be proud to say is, I have answered God. He knocked and I answered. Everyone here must know by now it is me who has answered God, not you. You say, "Me and God try to remove your blanket, but Satan has you under his thumb and you wont come out. We try but you refuse." You don't even believe in God, His Son, or Satan, which is clearly obvious, so you can't say its me under Satans thumb. You have to keep in mind that if God exists ("if" refering to your doubt) then it is truely you who is in Satans grasp not me, and no one can say otherwise. Because while I try to bring people to Christ, you try to scatter, don't say you don't because you would pull anyone from Christ you could. That is of course what you are trying to do to me. Through our works is our faith shown.

You and me are like the Ying Yang. The colour of the side doesn't matter, the point is in our faiths we both stand on the oposite side in every way. However, me and you both stand in the dark shade of the black when it comes to sin. We are both sinners, and not you nor I could say otherwise. In every aspect, I am just as guilty. Actually, if you want to get technical, I myself am more guilty than you in that while I know Christ and God's command, I still sin. While I acknowledge God in every way and love him with all my heart, I defile myself with sin, and am therefore, far more guilty and deserving of punishment than you. Amen-Isn't this the truth?

But any sin can be forgiven, no matter who it is. Nothing makes you earn any more or less of God's love. You already have all of God's love, all of us do. Unfortunately, not everyone shows the same love back. In fact, people show God more of their hate and condemnation more than anything. "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?" If hating your brother is being guilty of murder, than hating God must be much worse. And he still loves us the same no matter what. Even the angels are curious about why a holy God would forgive sinners like us. The angels are always trying to learn God's ways, understand such powerful love. God's love is so much more clear when you accept him and love him back, your hate only clouds God's love.

haunted

Og: applause.

Faith, you obviously aren't willing to open-mindedly listen to agnostics' ideals. If you don't agree with the theories of evolution and natural processes, which are nothing more than rational attempts at explaining existance, don't waste your time in trying to debaffle us who take it seriously. Religion, including yours, is the farthest thing from the answers we seek.

jaej

Faith, where do you get these crazy ideas about evolution? You do realize it happened over millions and millions and millions of years? That to say 'you've never observed a monkey in evolution so evolution can't be real' is just plain ignorance? Please tell me you can at least understand this simple reasoning.

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