greywolf90

aren't carbon molecules how biologists differentiate between organic and inorganic? i will agree that phones and other objects can respond to the environment. i can also see that DNA could be compared to programming. i guess the best way to seperate life from nonlife would be that life dies. it has a beginning and end. we could also consider reproduction...

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"is all that we see or seem
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Og

"Organic" describes a level of complexity available to a molecule. Carbon has many bond options (i.e. 4 valence electrons) and can therefore create complex patterns. See the wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_%28model%29

You are also correct that "organic" refers to carbon based molecules. This does not require, however, that LIFE be based on carbon compounds.

On death: Ever recycled/upgraded a cell phone? Ever had it break on you and cease functionality?

Also, here is an example of an "immortal" cell line taken from a cancer patient: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

Death means "failure of components resulting in termination of primary functions"... I can't see how it could be interpreted any other way. Nor do I see how this is limited to carbon based entities.

As for reproduction, I see no reason why this need be a requirement for life. I can understand why carbon based life would have this feature (it wouldn't perpetuate if it didn't). But we don't call mules (i.e. sterile horse/donkeys) "not life" even though they can't reproduce.

There's also nothing precluding us from calling a cell phone a "mule" and referring to it's construction plans in a computer somewhere as "capable of mass reproduction"... There's also nothing precluding us from adding in the features that would allow a cell phone to reproduce. It'd just make it bulky and wouldn't have much functionality for the user.

In the end, reproduction is a mechanical/chemical process and removing it from a system need not preclude it from being considered "life."

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

greywolf90

ok i give. i can't think of any better arguments for now, so can you explain how something like a rock has life in the same sence as a bacteria or animal. also, on a somewhat related topic, i don't understand why a virus is considered inorganic since it has both DNA/RNA and proteins.
(and i am looking forward to the day when we have self-replicating phones)

__________________
"is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"- poe

Og

That's kind of my point. There is no difference in any fundamental sense between a rock and a person. There's all manner of intermediate forms that actually exist from rocks to puddles of goop to nebulae to amino acids to proteins to viruses to organelles to cells to organisms.

My point is that "life" is an ill defined term that exists simply because we didn't posses and understanding of the nature of the components of the universe and ourselves a long while back. It's like the notions of the soul and of a god/creator separate from us. They are products of missunderstanding and confusion. There is NO evidentiary reason to even postulate such things given our present understanding of biological systems. The reason they exist is because they came in the past and persist. Who knows what things we postulate today that are based on misunderstanding. But it's clear that distinction of KIND such as "life" and "non-life" are false dichotomies.

It's a gradient of complexity and style of organization. There is clearly something different between what we call a rock (non-life) and what we call life (a human or cell), but this dichotomy forces us to ignore the complex feedback control systems that we create every day (i.e. cell phones and cars and nations and families and mcdonalds franchises).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

I don't really see a useful way of defining life unless you make arbitrary constraints like "it must be carbon based" for which there is no real logical reason.

Otherwise, it's just signal transduction across some arbitrary boundary. Call this body the cell wall or the skin or the physical package in which a cell phone is contained. Pick any level of organization, define a boundary where signals go in and out and are converted to a different form, and you have life.

This could be anything from single atoms or subatomic particles to galaxies or clusters of galaxies.

People like GI say "we'll never be able to reproduce life" and then give no definition for what they mean by life. That's useful to them because it seems true given what people normally consider life as. This provides nothing for GI's theistic argument from ignorance. It simply means that people don't understand the nature of life.

In fact, we create it all the time. This forum is a life form of sorts. It's got all manner of inputs and outputs and responds internally to the inputs to create outputs in complex patterns. Did we create it? Hell yes.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

greywolf90

i liked how the immortal cell is able to read it's DNA without ever aging or dying. my idea of life was anything that dies: water and rocks do not die, therefore they are not alive, but this definately crosses the boundries. i think i understand what you are saying now. although humans are different from plants, we are related by evolution; so i guess you are extending that definition to include all matter? everything that is matter is related?

__________________
"is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"- poe

Og

Yes.. I would go as far to say that they are all one, as well. Entities, beings, and boundaries are all arbitrary and, in the end, relative only to how you perceive the world.

Why should a rock of carbon/nitrogen/phosphorous be not-life while a human sack of the same materials in a certain other configuration is considered life?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

So there is no difference to me taking a 5 kg sledge hammer to a rock in my garden and, say, the neighbour's cat?

I know the consequences will be different; I should wear safety glasses when hitting the rock.

Before anyone gets too upset I actually like the neighbour's cat, she is good at decimating the local pocket gopher community.

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shadowind

depends on how you look at it,
personally i wouldn't, few reasons behind it.
also sociaty has it as a taboo and your neighbour probally won't like it.

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remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

romansh

I suspect some neighbours would not object at all and the pocket gophers would be positively thankful.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams