NotConvinced

yeah dude, og, I got what you're saying the first time man, but what about a soul, if it exists (cuz I have no proof one way or the other), could IT, and not our environment, be the source of some of our choices. It seems obvious that all our movements in the physical world, if that's what I wanna call it, are determined by our environment, somewhere throughout the last 24 years of my life, and my mothers for that matter, and yeah everyone elses.........but does the soul, if it exists, serve as an outside source that our true free will derives from. Isn't it true that we know relatively little about our own brains, we could know so much more in the years to come, how do we physically or mentally know all our choices are linked to the physical world?

Og

No, there is no soul separate from the hardware.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

NotConvinced

lol, thank you almighty and omniscient Og.....

The question was more along the lines with.......assume there is a soul, now, could it account for a portion of your free will. If it did, isn't that the part that gets "judged" in the end by God...so say the christians amen.

I mean, whether or not there's a soul kinda ends up being extremely similar to whether or not there's a god. And personally I can't say there is a god, or definately is not a god, so I guess I'd have to say the same about a soul, and logically to me right now, given a soul, which I'll admit seems awful doubtful, everyone can have free will.

Og

The notion of a soul is entirely an anecdotal claim from myth driven dark ages. There is absolutely no reason, given our modern understanding of the universe, to postulate the notion of a soul other than some wishful fascist thinking in which you hope that there is a celestial dictator who knows your every thought and intention and judges you based on them for all eternity.

Free will does not make sense when you sit down and actually think about your motivation for action. Do you have reasons for behaving in a certain way? Yes. These reasons are a description of how your brain (the machine) is working. Could you change your reasons for action? If so, what would your reasons be for doing that? See?

To be truly responsible for your actions, you need to say that you caused them. So in some odd way, free will as a notion requires causality/determinism to apply. The only way that an action could appear free if it was truly and utterly random (i.e. no reason to connect it to a causal chain).

And furthermore, not all christian's believe in free will. In fact, a large number of them do not (such as presbyterians and other calvinists). They believe everyone is predestined and have bible verses to back it up.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

NotConvinced

I'm pretty sure I understood this the first time through, didn't need a 2nd or 3rd interpretation of it, you described it very well the first time.

And assuming, like I said in the last post, that there is a soul (regardless of whether it's an anecdotal claim), then wouldn't you have to delimit actions of free will to truly and utterly random ones, to include other types of actions directly caused by the soul?

yeah makes total sense, in their eyes either you do have free will but God just knows everything you're gonna do anyway, or you don't, because of predestiny.

Overall I'd rather settle on a conclusion such as the one you're recommending, but I can't do that honestly, without accounting for the "soul factor" of free will.

Tomasz

The theorem of us being highly complicated I/0 systems developed in the process of evolution is true, therefore a notion of external diety (created by our egos) who is judging us must be false is not so difficult to understand

One certainly has to admire intelectual acrobatics Og does over New Testament to convince us there's no personal God in there

__________________
It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts - Sherlock Holmes

Og

Can't take the credit here. Many theologians/mythologists/scientists and even people who knew jesus interpret the NT in this manner. See Carl Sagan, Joseph Campbell, and the gnostic/coptic gospels uncovered in the dead sea and nag hamadi in the past century. Also see the works of modern physical science and archaeologists illustrating connectivity of the myths of the world.

The acrobatics involve the church keeping their people in ignorance in a world where borders and boundaries are falling.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are