sisterX

Funny how when you talk about computers being more complex than simple life forms, the two examples of 'life forms' you give are not even considered living. Computers and the internet may be complex, but it doesn't make sense to play-down the important origin of the, far more complex, being that created it.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

pseudonous

Amazing, so now they can cheat. Their claim is that they will create cellular life in vitro. If they can cheat, how can it be all talk? Ridiculous.

Og

HAH! Then what the hell is abiogenesis? If the process of creating biology doesn't produce "life" then what the heck are you talking about?

Was I playing down the origin of the complex beings who created the computer? Certainly not. And complex silicon based organisms (i.e. your cell phone or computers or the internet) would not exist if the self assembling carbon based entities did not come along. Silicon based compounds form things like glass and plastics and rubbers... Nothing as complex as the naturally produced carbon compounds seen in interstellar gas clouds, the miller-urey experiment, and life on earth.

I think it's funny, though, that you think a human being is more complex than the world-wide internet. The complexity of that network (I would say) far exceeds that of the human brain. It's just not organized with a survival goal in mind and doesn't have the same kind of patterns as our brain does nor does it have a definition of a self (it's a generalized and distributed pattern of signals).

The human being came about by a brilliant but mindless process. The notion of necessary designer that you're putting forth is provincial and uninformed. Take a thermodynamics and molecular biology class, then a systems engineering course from an electrical engineering department, or stay out of discussions on the nature of life.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

The notion that life is somehow related to carbon compounds or physical constructs (i.e. not computer simulations) is just to illustrate a lack of understanding of exactly what living organisms are.

More study required on the part of the armchair scientist please.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

A McDonalds is identical in behavior to a cell in your body.

You go up to the window (a binding point) and you transduce a signal into the entity (a human or a box attached to a human by RF radiation at the drive through). Then preformatted patterns inside are produced and you get a fixed response based on what signals you put into the system. The McDonalds requires power sources and raw materials to carry out its behavior.

In every way, every McDonalds you go by is an exact example of a fully functioning entity. It's identical to a cell in your body in every way except for the actual material components and size scale. In the same way astrocytes in the blood-brain barrier or red blood cells provide intermediate functions for other cells and tissues, McDonalds provides intermediate functions for all sorts of humans (providing rapid nourishment).

From proteins to galaxies, biological systems are no different from electronic or social or intergalactic systems. The notion that "creating life in the lab" is difficult is silly. "Life" in some form or another is created all the time and exists everywhere. I create it when I make a circuit board or write a computer program.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Probability_Amplitude

I see no theological significance nor any implications as a result of this.

The correct Islamic 'aqeeda (belief) is that God is the creator of cause and effects and that if man creates life through the cause and effects which he has designed, it means nothing.

__________________
I am free, at last.

Og

I'm curious how god created cause and effect before there was cause and effect. How could he have that effect?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

jaej

It has significance in the fundamental christian belief, which is that life is unique and can only have come from god. They would just ignore it of course, or say the scientists cheated, which curiously enough sisterX already said..

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Kham

Og, clearly there is a distinction between complex processes and what we might call life. If you do not think so, read this excerpt of your words again:

Why distinguish between "modern computers" and "basic life forms." Aren't computers just complex life forms? I do not think so. The carbon-based idea of life may be one of the uneducated and religious, but it was also the idea of science.

Personally, and this is an aside, I do not distinguish between my life and my capacity to experience living. I am not alive until I can do so and I die afterwards. Perhaps I still have a pulse before and afterwards, that does not make me alive. Similarly, I would not count this keyboard, monitor, or even my PC as alive. They do not experience life.

But that is a philosophical point. I think that it is possible for scientists to create basic forms of life in a lab. And I agree with the comparisons you're drawing, and almost all of the ideas you've expressed.

But I do not agree with your ad hominems.
On this board, you have made the claims of an astrophysicist, neurobiologist, and neurophysiologist, just from what I can remember. I seriously doubt that you have the proper classical education in all three. Reading a book by Stephen Hawking doesn't make you any more than an armchair scientist as well.

sisterX

Og, computers and cell phones are "living organisms"? Have you forgotten to take your medication? Is that what you call Biology? You have a weird metaphorical view of the cosmos, borderline freaky.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran