danarch

"if its no good for one thing, its no good for anything"

why does censorship exist? i keep contemplating the question to no avail. it seems that censoeship is only the opions of those in power to influence a moral code to the masses. why the double standard? why is it ok only if it fits the perceptions of the few when so many individuals can and WILL chose whats right and wrong for themselves? even now i will not use launguage thats has been deemed inapropiate for agnosticforums.com (awsome site btw
but why?
freedom of speech is not absolute in the usa says the fcc
why?
in my mental structure of the difference between right and wrong, the oppression invoked by censorship outweighs the "negitive" influance that may POSSIBLY occurr without it.
any thoughts?

__________________
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know."

Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.wickedcpu.com

The An-Jel

dan... the religous are insane... you win...

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

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pseudonous

One good reason freedom of speech is not absolute is to stop people from inciting riots. Many people do not think for themselves and are easily riled.

Searcher

Taken to an extreme, freedom of speech can be a breach of people's own privacy. For example if swearing were permitted in school on the basis that children are expressing their freedom of speech, then some parents would be outraged that their children were being exposed to it.

Likewise when you see porn on the shelves with the covers err... covered. That's because people acknowledge that while some people want to buy them, not everybody wants to see ladies' breasts as they look for their weekly fishing magazine while their little kids are buying comics.

So I agree some degree of censorship is logical and reasonable.

I also definitely agree it can, and has in many cases, gone too far.

I think a very striking example of this was recently on a radio discussion. It concerned the police stopping people with offensive T-Shirts in a shopping centre and asking them not to wear them.

Some people thought this was ridiculous and blatant nanny-state stuff. Others thought it was quite right people should not be able to blatantly express extreme views, jokes that are probably considered bad taste, and other potentially offensive material in a public area.

Even on the one issue of T-Shirts, I wouldn't be sure where to draw a line. I don't want to spoil anyones fun, but on the other hand I don't want my kids asking me what all these mean (warning, may offend some):

Click here
Click here
Click here

I am sure there are worse, I found those with one very quick google in about 2 minutes. I'm no prude, but there is a time and place for that sort of issue with children, and in the middle of a busy shopping centre at a randomly chosen age is not the time. I also appreciate that many adults don't really want to see that sort of thing, some may be upsetting to them.

I have no innate problem with joke or offensive T-Shirts - but they should be worn in places where people can make their own mind up about whether they are funny/offensive/whatever e.g. nightclubs, pubs late at night, rock concerts, etc. Where those people you are exposing to your particular brand of humour are most likely of a type who can choose to ignore, laugh, punch you or whatever. Not on the high street at 1pm, with little children and old grannies alike being exposed to them without any consent at all.

To summarise, I think censorship has its place. I want to see certain things censored in certain circumstances. But I also agree sometimes, maybe very often, it goes too far.

danarch

i only reconize "swear words" by the censors that surround them. its just a stupid taboo. the f word has its roots in christianity about sex and christian morals. if my kid asked why he got in trouble in school for saying the f word, i would say "its a long story, but it all started with religious opression."

i will buy the porn issue. but sex and nudity are not the same. so what if the kid sees nude images. i do not want my kid raised thinking nudity and sex are a dirty bad thing. intercourse is difficult to explain to a toddler tho



i would buy my kids any of those shirts

i love wearing shirst like that, esspecially to express my self to little old grannies.f**k em if they cant take a joke

__________________
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know."

Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.wickedcpu.com

Searcher

I don't think 'swearing' has anything to do with religion. Plenty of non-religious people refrain from swearing. They are just words which have a meaning which originally people found distasteful, and because they have a strong impact people use them to show anger or emphasise something.

Swearing in itself is a strange issue though. Suffice it to say that even if you approve of swearing, or don't even regard 'swearwords' as anything special, they have a specific use in language - to emphasise and express feelings. If they are overused then they lose that meaning. For some, their use shows a lack of vocabulary or is just an attempt to sound big cos they can use tough words.

Not to mention that those words are often used to mean something completely irrelavent to their true meaning. S/He might use it, but does your kid actually know the meaning of the f word?

Don't get me wrong, I swear plenty in certain company and situations. But I don't force it on others 24/7, because I know that for their own reasons, others don't like it, and I have respect for other people.

I think it's OK for young kids to see nudity in general, not to be ashamed of themselves, and I agree they should not see sex or nudity as anything dirty or bad. I also don't want them to think its OK to just whip all their clothes off in the middle of the street every time we go shopping.

But how do you explain why there are magazines with breasts and genitalia, and phrases they can read and ask questions about on the covers without mentioning the sex issue? Sex is the only reason we have porn. And I will choose when to educate my children on that issue when I feel they are ready - not because some people object to being prevented from offending people, thus they are exposed to it at random times when they may not yet be ready.

You would buy your 6/7/8/9/10 year old daughter a T-Shirt saying

etc etc?

Seriously?

Theres a big difference between expressing an opinion to those who might care about it in a joking fashion, and forcing your opinion into other peoples faces, in the full knowledge you are doing it only to offend.

danarch

they are just words. freedom of speech exists in my home. i will not lie when asked the meaning of the f word by them.

only at work for me in reguard to customers. i am aprofessional after all.



thats pretty dumb. wait till your ready to expain it to them? its too late by then. when its growing up as taboo, they just learn it from their friends, and dont feel comfortable talking about it with you.

lol i love the first 2 by it for them at any age. but id hate to have to bash someones skull in over my daughter wearing a shirt about sex at 6yrs old. i dont wanna attract pervs now do i?

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING. hey ill not wear a shirt if the church will take down that propaganda on every church sign. im offended every time i see the what would jesus do bumpersticker. i dont care if i offend people.

__________________
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know."

Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.wickedcpu.com

Searcher

Yes they are just words. The point is, as with any words, if they are going to use it then they should know what it means. And they may not be ready for that. It follows they may not be ready to read about it on T-shirts either.

So when you have to deal with people from whom you want something, only then do you care whether you offend them or not?

I don' think you have read properly - I never said anything about me being ready to explain it. I'm ready to explain it whenever they ask, or when I feel they are mature enough that they should know, or if I feel they have been misinformed about something and need correcting. Not because others feel the need to force their self expressions onto them, regardless of whether they are ready or not. I will tell them when I feel they are ready to learn, and not before.

It is not your decision to determine when my children are ready to learn about these things, and the manner in which they learn it. That is between my wife, myself and our children.

I wonder, do you actually have children or is this all hypothetical for you? I don't think I have known any parents who find parenting so easy as to refer to another parents approach as dumb based on so little evidence. Most parents I know accept its a difficult job and try to help each other, but maybe I'm just lucky so far.

Firstly I think you misunderstand me again. I was referring to giving opinions when requested, for example here you started a thread asking what people thought of censorchip and I responded with my opinion. Or when you are in a situation where your opinion is unlikely to cause offense to others (Pogues concert?), or where they may actually be interested in how you express yourself (Night Club?).

Secondly, I don't know what bumper sticker you are referring to, or what propaganda on church signs you mean. Last church I looked at the outside of had service times outside, something with the name of the church, and not much else. If you mean the cross sign then that's purely telling people what type of building it is. Its a recognition thing, so far as I know. If you mean something else, you should elaborate.

I have no problem with jokes going 'close to the bone' in the right company. But I don't tell them to my kids, and definitely not to any old stranger I meet in the streets, just to prove I can express myself, just because 'I feel like it'. Wearing that T-Shirt is like telling every person you meet that same thing, whether they want to hear it or not.

Oh and by all means refer to my opinions on what I consider responsible parenting as 'dumb', if it helps reinforce your apparent perception that you are absolutely 100% right, and anyone who doesn't agree is dumb.

You asked for opinons, I'm giving you mine. If you don't value it thats fine, but I had thought you started this thread for reasons other than to be rebellious and hilight your freedom of expression. Apparently you had already made up your mind that censorship is always bad. I thought you wanted other's opinions because you were open minded on the issue. Apparently not.

danarch

ok....your point is that its the parents Decision to decide whats appropiate for their children. the parents are the censors. as i never had such i really dont understand why. it just feels like opressive behavior with good intentions. give em the tools to make up their own mind, dont make it up for them. of course i may be wrong....

just when i dont want something like loosing my job or going to jail. if your scared to offend someone you give them the power.



truthfully i have no kids and never will. PARENTING IS NOT EASY. i never said it was. all i said was that i thought it was unwise(less harsh than stupid maybe...) to wait till you feel your kids are ready to learn about something. when they wanna learn about something they will find out in a way that usually leads to misinformation from their friends. the trick is to beat em to the punch, let the cat out of the bag, and form a solid foundation with the truth.

wow that was a mouth full.
this is about opinons yes and your opinion is valued. hell yours may even alter my perspective on the subject. the movie "the people vs larry flint" gave me an idea. walking into sunday mass at a local southern baptist church with hard core bible thumpers eveywhere with a shirt on saying "f**k this church".
when asked i just said the devil made me doit. it was fun. i was expressing what i felt without damage to life,limb,or property. hope that helps put my opinon in perpective. btw if i had a kid, they'd be there with me wearing the same shirt, if they wanted to go ofcourse
common use of bible text,among other text, in front of churches on marquee signs. i cant even get away from the oppression when driving alone in my car.

well your free to pick and choose what you want so say and when you want to say it. i agree on some level.
i am never 100% right on my opinions. i need people to dissagree, or it kinda losses its meaning. never feel anything when offended, its fuel for the fire. your experiance with parenting is far mor substantial than my logic of it. i would be "dumb" not to know this from the start. but i was a kid once....

i am rebellious against censorship. but maybe some should be tolorated to protect the very thing im trying to protect.....lol i just learned that from you
more, i just assimilated that logic from you.
(thats really the point of this thread. as the rednecks say "light a fire under his a*s)

__________________
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know."

Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.wickedcpu.com

Searcher

That's exactly what I'm getting at. Parents, in general, are the people who know their kids the best. If you are honest and open with them when they do ask things (which I fully endorse) and encourage trust and mature conversation, and that no question is wrong if they really want to know the answer, then they will not be afraid to ask when they want to know something.

I'm unsure what you mean by "as i never had such", do you mean no parents, no censorship, I'm really not sure what you mean.

How do you go about giving children the tools to make up their own mind about something, without specifically explaining it to them? And if you have to explain it, then you have to believe they are ready and willing to learn and understand.

We encourage the asking of questions - my son (my youngest) has several 'biology' books about the human body, which we have first checked out and given to him, if he wanted us to fill in the gaps I am sure he would say so. He really isn't shy to ask questions, and has asked some slightly 'leading' ones, so I expect it very soon. Probably the next time his special interest changes from Dinosaurs back to biology. Our daughter is slightly older and well on the way to knowing the full facts.

Hmm oppression? Other than politely requestion other people do not force their views onto my children, be it by T-Shirt or by coming up and telling them if they don't become Jehova's Witnesses they will go to hell, I see no oppression. The fact not everybody respects that I may not want to know or hear their opinion, and in particular I may not want them shoving it in my childrens faces, is why we have censorship.

If you insist people must be exposed to your opinions, even when they aren't interested and may be offended by them, then in my view that can feel every bit as oppresive as censorship itself.

Taking things a little too far? I can see the logic in the grander scale, thats why I do think sometimes censorship goes too far. However I fail to see how the little old lady or children, or parents of said children, are in any way holding power over you simply because they would prefer not to have your 'freedom of expression' forced onto them whenever you feel like it. You have that same right, and if not then you ought to.

You cannot teach your kids everything all at once. There is a gradual learning process. Some things should or even must be learned before others. For example why try to teach a child who has not mastered basic arithmetic complex algebra? Children develop at different rates, parents and teachers i.e. people who know that child well, or know child development very well, are the ones who should make these decisions. Not teenagers and rebels down the shopping centre, who feel the need to express themselves to anyone who walks by.

Yes of course misinformation creeps in, but that is very easy to set straight, providing you have children who trust you and are not afraid to ask questions. Again, each kid and parent is different, of course not everyone gets it right but they have more chance of gving the right information at the right time, than random passers by on the high street.

Well I am glad to hear it. Don't worry, I also take your views on board. I don't think they are anything new or that I haven't heard before, I actually agree on some points but on others I disagree. Possibly because of firsthand experience, possibly other things like upbringing - I don't know. But you are right to question providing you are actually interested in the answers.

Out of interest, what exactly were you expressing? Why that particular church? What had that particular congregation done to warrant this demonstration inside their own property? I'm nto saying it wasn't warranted, but you haven't really explained why you did what you did, other than 'to express yourself'.

Well to an extent I agree. Religion can be oversold with propaganda, that doesn't make it OK for people to force their own version back, with people (dare I say, like me?) stuck in the middle. That's just being deliberately confrontational.

I don't want guys standing on streets grabbing me by the arm and telling me if I don't repent and find Jesus then I am going to hell. I'm not keen on the JW method of knocking on doors either. But I try to accept that they believe they are helping people and simply politely decline before closing the door in their faces.

The difference is I don't think these people are trying to cause offense, in most cases probably don't realise they are possibly doing more harm than good. AFAIK they mostly try to talk to adults, who can easily disrgard or politely decline. I wouldn't be happy if they were going around classrooms except as an educational part of the curriculum in which all major religions were equally represented. That would have to have educational value of course.

You are still being pretty vague though. I'd like to hear your own example of an oppressive church sign that should be censored to protect you or children from their opinions. Or if you are truly against censorship, one that justifies you going into their church and complaining about it, as one might do with an offensive (e.g. oversexual or containing swearing or other controversial material) poster or billboard.

There are very very few things you cannot say to someone somewhere these days. In that respect we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression. The thing is we cannot say and express whatever we want whenever and wherever we want. Fact is people want and deserve their privacy, and to be left alone to do whatever they want to do (providing it isn't hurting someone of course) just as much as you deserve to express yourself.

Hehe - no matter how experienced a parent you are, you are never 100% logical when doing it. It's easy to say what you would and would not do, until you actually work closely with children be it as parent or teacher or childminder or whatever. Children are humans like any other. They have feelings and opinions that you will not always agree on. They don't always want to do what we think is best for them, even if we really do know best (which is not always, but we can only do our best). But that's ok, it's part of growing up, part of the challenge, and there is a lot of joy to be found in the process. At least for me so far.

I worked this out before you said it.

But it's ok, everyone is entitled to rebel sometimes. Just try not to tar everyone with the same brush of oppression, and express yourself to those who have actually done something to warrant a wake-up call. Try not to pick on innocent bystanders, which believe it or not do exist.

Glad to be of some help. Even if I said enough to make you think in a way you hadn't thought before, then in my book that's good.

I said from the start it's a grey area for me. I don't want to see everything censored, but I do think it has its place. Not to stop someone from saying a certain thing, wearing a certain shirt, but to encourage them to do it in an appropriate place, with acceptance that they don't have the right to force it on others anymore than others have the right to take it away entirely.

End of the day, we all have to share this small world. You never know - one day you might have to work for one of those folks you met in church that day. If that happens, you better hope they really mean it when they say they believed Jesus when he said 'Love your enemies'