Censorship - Page 2

danarch · 10-02-2007, 01:20 AM

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I'm unsure what you mean by "as i never had such", do you mean no parents, no censorship, I'm really not sure what you mean.

my maternal mother is a crack whore. between the age of 7 and 16 ive moved 50+ times , staying with whoever would take me in, or her, or both. ive been adopted once for about a year. i live at my father house for 3 months at age 13 , before he put my on the street for smoking pot. directly after that my crackhead uncle took me in for a while until my crackhead mother need to show HRS that i was living with her, due to the fact she was collecting on me at the time. i could gone on like that, but it would fill up a few pages. before 7, my life wants that bad, except the child abuse by one of my stepfathers. at 16 i was self supporting and my father and i made amends, and everything after that was my own doing. i might not know alot about children, but i know alot about parents, having many, many of them in my childhood.

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it just feels like opressive behavior with good intentions. give em the tools to make up their own mind, dont make it up for them. of course i may be wrong....

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How do you go about giving children the tools to make up their own mind about something, without specifically explaining it to them? And if you have to explain it, then you have to believe they are ready and willing to learn and understand.

dont worry, im sure your doing it already and have been doing it for years. you sound like a pretty smart parent. the tools are just like problem solving skills, perspectives, actions and consequences, pointing out charachter traits when they happen(more important that it looks), unbias base knowledge(dont wait for the question,so it will have a bigger impact), stuff like that. i studied all parents i had. i could figure out what they wanted to accomplish, and what they were doin wrong to reach that goal. ahhh born with a 160 IQ and into a hellhole. if there is a all controlling deity, its humor is twisted

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just when i dont want something like loosing my job or going to jail. if your scared to offend someone you give them the power.

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Taking things a little too far? I can see the logic in the grander scale, thats why I do think sometimes censorship goes too far. However I fail to see how the little old lady or children, or parents of said children, are in any way holding power over you simply because they would prefer not to have your 'freedom of expression' forced onto them whenever you feel like it. You have that same right, and if not then you ought to.

i guess its a matter of respect. i would not were my porn star shirts to a daycare. its disrespectful in more than a few ways. if im at the store i dont care. i dont think about other people at the store when i put it on, and when they wanna say somthin about it, ill tell them a few things

:cen sored:

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You cannot teach your kids everything all at once. There is a gradual learning process. Some things should or even must be learned before others. For example why try to teach a child who has not mastered basic arithmetic complex algebra? Children develop at different rates, parents and teachers i.e. people who know that child well, or know child development very well, are the ones who should make these decisions. Not teenagers and rebels down the shopping centre, who feel the need to express themselves to anyone who walks by.

Yes of course misinformation creeps in, but that is very easy to set straight, providing you have children who trust you and are not afraid to ask questions. Again, each kid and parent is different, of course not everyone gets it right but they have more chance of gving the right information at the right time, than random passers by on the high street.

hmmmm, doesnt seem like you understand. of course not all at once. now this is important, if they have to ask you about something that is an uncomfortable subject or anything thats very important in life to know, somethings wrong. maybe the problem is minuscule, like only having a few pieces of information missing when they are in a given situation. on the other end it may aready be too late. no information. nothing in the toolbox that refers to whats going on around them. play it safe. having "the talk" is not good either. slip it in casualy, but emphisize its importance. im sure you know that part, right...

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the movie "the people vs larry flint" gave me an idea. walking into sunday mass at a local southern baptist church with hard core bible thumpers eveywhere with a shirt on saying "f**k this church".
when asked i just said the devil made me doit. it was fun. i was expressing what i felt without damage to life,limb,or property. hope that helps put my opinon in perpective. btw if i had a kid, they'd be there with me wearing the same shirt, if they wanted to go ofcourse

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Out of interest, what exactly were you expressing? Why that particular church? What had that particular congregation done to warrant this demonstration inside their own property? I'm nto saying it wasn't warranted, but you haven't really explained why you did what you did, other than 'to express yourself'.

it was some church on the westside jacksonville. they were on the news for protesting at a abortion clinic. those women have it hard enough. screw that church. i was 17 at the time and just watched that larry flint movie. i dont do much like that anymore, just hand out fliers every once in awhile. im pro-choice btw

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You are still being pretty vague though. I'd like to hear your own example of an oppressive church sign that should be censored to protect you or children from their opinions. Or if you are truly against censorship, one that justifies you going into their church and complaining about it, as one might do with an offensive (e.g. oversexual or containing swearing or other controversial material) poster or billboard.

hmmm...."when satan knocks, let god answer" wtf..... obviously i cant say anything about it. i may take the letters down tho and re-spell them

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Fact is people want and deserve their privacy, and to be left alone to do whatever they want to do (providing it isn't hurting someone of course) just as much as you deserve to express yourself

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they can get there privacy when they turn around and leave my presence, ill do the same. unless one of of us has something to say.......

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Try not to pick on innocent bystanders, which believe it or not do exist.

i have honor. something akin to a warriors code

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You never know - one day you might have to work for one of those folks you met in church that day. If that happens, you better hope they really mean it when they say they believed Jesus when he said 'Love your enemies'

im big enough to put my personal problems aside for work. otherwise, they can suck my

Searcher · 10-02-2007, 07:09 AM

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my maternal mother is a crack whore........[snip]......i know alot about parents, having many, many of them in my childhood.

OK, that clarifies it. I see where you are coming from now. In my case our children have had (and will continue to have) a fairly consistent upbringing based on our own principles of parenting, which we hope are sound. You had no such consistency, so this may be hard to identify with, certainly harder to assume, unless it is hilighted. My sister is actually a child phychologist, who is great for advice, but suffice to say, and she would agree, even such professionals still do not find parenting easy.

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i guess its a matter of respect. i would not were my porn star shirts to a daycare. its disrespectful in more than a few ways. if im at the store i dont care. i dont think about other people at the store when i put it on, and when they wanna say somthin about it

On the first count, I'm glad to hear it. On the store, well IMO you should consider it equally as possible you will be shoving your 'self expression' into childrens faces. They are inquisitive and will read whatever is put in front of them, then they will ask their parents to explain it. Just because they can read doesn't mean they are ready to learn anything readable.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of potentially offensive shirts, posters etc which can be worn in front of children, those which use vague analogies or double entendre. If they ask it can be dismissed as a silly joke if the parent doesn't think they should know its exact meaning. When it is blatantly offensive, I personally would prefer that you reconsider when and where you wear it.

I probably wouldn't consider it worth saying anything to you - it's not worth it over something like this, you would have to be actually shoving it in our faces or actually targetting us before I would involve myself. Otherwise, I just think you were insensitive to the issue and steer clear.

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hmmmm, doesnt seem like you understand. of course not all at once. now this is important, if they have to ask you about something that is an uncomfortable subject or anything thats very important in life to know, somethings wrong. maybe the problem is minuscule, like only having a few pieces of information missing when they are in a given situation. on the other end it may aready be too late. no information. nothing in the toolbox that refers to whats going on around them. play it safe. having "the talk" is not good either. slip it in casualy, but emphisize its importance. im sure you know that part, right...

You're confusing me now. I said you cannot teach everything at once in reply to this comment by you:

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all i said was that i thought it was unwise to wait till you feel your kids are ready to learn about something.

So when exactly should a parent teach their children about something? They all develop differently. In life, there is a lot to learn about everything, not just this issue. My answer is that when you feel they ought to know (e.g. if their body is developing signs of maturity) when they ask or when you think they have some wrong information. There's no special reason to suddenly start telling kids about anything in particular unless you have a signal to do so. Sex is just the same - yes they will pick up some things on their own or frim friends, this is unavoidable unless you specifically make a point to teach them it. Providing they know the full facts by an appropriate age, I don't see it as a big issue.

I think as much damage might be done by teaching too much too soon, when they aren't ready, as by slight lackings in knowledge or small misinformations from others. Both of our children know enough about human anatomy, without necessarily knowing exact details, that I don't see any major problems coming their way.

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it was some church on the westside jacksonville. they were on the news for protesting at a abortion clinic. those women have it hard enough. screw that church. i was 17 at the time and just watched that larry flint movie. i dont do much like that anymore, just hand out fliers every once in awhile. im pro-choice btw

If it was in response to their own protest, which I consider equally as inappropriate as what you did (if not moreso) then I can see why you did it. Fortunately not every church behaves like that. Certainly not here in the UK, I wouldn't know about elsewhere in the world. While they probably think they are doing the right thing, I see that sort of action as the opposite of what Christianity should be about, what it is about for those I know who are Christian. They sound like fundamentalists to me, who cannot see the wood for the trees and perhaps your wakeup call will do them some good.

However, while you may not have liked it they were only using that same freedom of speech and lack of censorship that you are endorsing yourself. If you are against their protest, thats fine, but remember your counterprotest will not take away whatever damage and offense they cause to those at the clinic. It probably just caused anger, and may even have strengthened their beliefs that pro-choice are on the side of the devil and thus need to be opposed. You meant well, but it is certainly possible for such actions to make things worse.

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hmmm...."when satan knocks, let god answer" wtf..... obviously i cant say anything about it. i may take the letters down tho and re-spell them

I'm not sure what you find offensive about this. You disagree, that's fine. I'm not sure why it should annoy you though, unless they stick this onto your car, your house, or otherwise shove it in your face. If it's on a sign outside the church, I don't see a problem other than it being a bit corny. I would have no problem explaining to my kids, even with an atheist view or opposed religious view, that these people are simply expressing theif beliefs about God and Satan, and that we are all free to make up our own minds. I don't imagine many people consider all mention of God as 'taboo' or unsuitable for children. If they don't thing its correct, all they have to do is tell their kids its not true. It's not a complex issue, and I'm not really sure how it would be offensive, when placed in an appropriate place (i.e. not a school or other place children go to learn) even to those who disagree.

Seems to me that while you want freedom of speech for yourself, it annoys you when others express their opposite yet in their view equally legitimate opinions and beliefs. Basically you are bringing it down to 'who can shout louder' and again, bystanders are stuck in the middle taking flak from both sides whether they like it or not.

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they can get there privacy when they turn around and leave my presence, ill do the same. unless one of of us has something to say.......

Basically you are assuming yourself to be more important? In your own house, sure. In your local bar or club where there is a consensus about suitable dress etc, and anyone going there should accept this or shut up, sure. In public, no - you should all be equal, and give each other due respect and space. You have no more right to make others feel uncomfortable in a public place, effectively forcing them to leave, than they do to limit your freedom of expression. You have to compromise sometimes - not everyone is against you, even if it sometimes feels like it. That's life.

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im big enough to put my personal problems aside for work.

My point was, you had better hope they are. It would really suck to work somewhere for a while, start getting somewhere and enjoying the job, then have some new boss with a massive grudge move in above you and make your life misery. It happens.

All I am saying is, sometimes you should take this into account. As you described it your actions are understandable, you were standing up for something important against someone who you felt did something wrong. I'm not sure I agree it was the best thing to do, but I can understand why you would do it. Maybe that's worth taking the risk if you really believe strongly enough, in fact it probably is.

Maximus · 10-02-2007, 07:14 AM

It's different in every country, I mean in France and Germany nobody cares if there's pictures of nude ladies in a magazine store, sex and nudity is not censored at all.

Anti-Smoking commercials here in u.s. and canada piss me off alot, how is it that you can have commercials running against smoking but you can't have smoking commercials? Then again I'm for legalizing every drug soo, it might be just me.

Censorship nowadays isn't used properly, I mean in the U.S. and Canada you have political correctness and liberal values all the ****ing time.

Of course freedom of speech is always going to be restricted but sometimes it's just idiotic, I mean hate crime is one of the most stupidest laws ever made.

danarch · 10-02-2007, 11:08 PM

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Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of potentially offensive shirts, posters etc which can be worn in front of children, those which use vague analogies or double entendre. If they ask it can be dismissed as a silly joke if the parent doesn't think they should know its exact meaning. When it is blatantly offensive, I personally would prefer that you reconsider when and where you wear it.

i never lie to children. EVER. if i get asked about a subject that is inappropriate for someone other then the the parent i say " thats something only your parents can answer". i would not dismiss it and lie even if i was the parent. i had enough of that growning up and resent it so much i can feel it in my bones. as a parent its your job to be honest. brutally honest. your at the top of the food chain of honesty. they WILL find out the truth and WILL know you lied. there's no going back from that.

as for being offensive, yes i may be inappropriate, and yes i may wrong, but i will not be a prisioner of my own life. i am who i am and i can be no less.

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Both of our children know enough about human anatomy, without necessarily knowing exact details, that I don't see any major problems coming their way.

its not just about sex. its the whole picture. you may want to ignore these things on the news but they wont go away. children live in the same world.

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Certainly not here in the UK, I wouldn't know about elsewhere in the world

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southern baptist christian = extremest
i hate these guys. tyrants. they influence laws. they try to make peoples life hell. they dont mean well. they mean to harm.

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However, while you may not have liked it they were only using that same freedom of speech and lack of censorship that you are endorsing yourself. If you are against their protest, thats fine, but remember your counterprotest will not take away whatever damage and offense they cause to those at the clinic.

the damage cannot be taken away by anything. atleast i had the satisfaction that they know those people are not alone. i will fight for them. many wars have been fought in this country on those terms.(martin luther king, abe lincon, malcom x, to name a few) all of those ended in bloodshed, murder, and massive bloodshed. dont think i wont shed blood for a rape victim getting an abortion. i will go to war.

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Seems to me that while you want freedom of speech for yourself, it annoys you when others express their opposite yet in their view equally legitimate opinions and beliefs. Basically you are bringing it down to 'who can shout louder' and again, bystanders are stuck in the middle taking flak from both sides whether they like it or not.

people know what they believe. it may be different from both sides. nothing would happen if no one took a stand. im not saying censor those people im against. but dont censor my side.

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Basically you are assuming yourself to be more important? In your own house, sure. In your local bar or club where there is a consensus about suitable dress etc, and anyone going there should accept this or shut up, sure. In public, no - you should all be equal, and give each other due respect and space. You have no more right to make others feel uncomfortable in a public place, effectively forcing them to leave, than they do to limit your freedom of expression. You have to compromise sometimes - not everyone is against you, even if it sometimes feels like it. That's life.

pretty wise words. if someone is saying , or doing, or wearing something offensive to me i simply ignore them. or i may say their shirt sucks. i would never tuck tail and run. if i do then i have lost. here, we all have the right to make people feel unconfortable. we do have to compromise sometimes - but sometime you cant and then its war. thats life.

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im big enough to put my personal problems aside for work.

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My point was, you had better hope they are. It would really suck to work somewhere for a while, start getting somewhere and enjoying the job, then have some new boss with a massive grudge move in above you and make your life misery. It happens.

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Maybe that's worth taking the risk if you really believe strongly enough, in fact it probably is.

trust me i do see your point. and its a good one. and i follow that last quote pretty closely.

i know im not always right. i know i do things that may inch over that line between expression and offensive. i dont have all the answers.
but i will fight for the truth and for freedom.
i know they have the right to voice their opinion. i know sometimes they may know whats whats best for everyone. sometime they do not. they do not have all the answers.
i will still fight to preserve our rights.

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will win a hundred times in a hundred battles. If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you win one and lose the next. If you do not know yourself or your enemy, you will always lose"
Sun Tzu

Searcher · 10-03-2007, 01:32 AM

I dont have time for a full reply, so quickly:

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i never lie to children. EVER. if i get asked about a subject that is inappropriate for someone other then the the parent i say " thats something only your parents can answer". i would not dismiss it and lie even if i was the parent. i had enough of that growning up and resent it so much i can feel it in my bones. as a parent its your job to be honest. brutally honest. your at the top of the food chain of honesty. they WILL find out the truth and WILL know you lied. there's no going back from that.

There is a difference between lying and declining to answer. I'm suggesting the latter - its a half truth based on the fact that if they don't know the basics they aren't ready for the full story yet.

Equally, if a student asks about advanced algebra, the teacher would first ensure they understand the basics not confuse the issue with answering the actual question.

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its not just about sex. its the whole picture. you may want to ignore these things on the news but they wont go away. children live in the same world.

Trust me, I don't cover these things up either. If theres a sad news story on the radio as I am driving my kids, I will explain if they ask. If I think they should be asking, I will ask if they heard it, and what do they think about it. In moderation of course.

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people know what they believe. it may be different from both sides. nothing would happen if no one took a stand. im not saying censor those people im against. but dont censor my side.

I think maybe we have different ideas of censorship, maybe you are fighting something that's really not as bad as you think. You can express your views, all that is asked is you choose an appropriate time and place to do so. I consider this partial censorship and a good thing. Total censorship "you cannot say this no matter what" I disagree with. We agree on that much.

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if someone is saying , or doing, or wearing something offensive to me i simply ignore them. or i may say their shirt sucks. i would never tuck tail and run. if i do then i have lost.

Again, it isn't always a battle. There's no need to go through life thinking of everything as confrontation, win or lose. Also, kids don't have this choice. And by the time the parents notice, maybe it is too late.

I gotta go lest I be late for work.

danarch · 10-04-2007, 01:21 AM

its hard for me to understand some of your logic. kids are smart. they are no fools. they have a voice like anyone else. they are theyre own person. parents should influence this, but when they try to control it, thats crossing a line somewhere to me........i was born into a fight for survival. life has been a battle for me so thats engraved into who i am. i feel that way when i drive, work, talk, ect.

its hard for me to face the truth that theres good people out there. everyone sometimes seems like a possible enemy.

Searcher · 10-04-2007, 12:18 PM

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its hard for me to understand some of your logic. kids are smart. they are no fools. they have a voice like anyone else. they are theyre own person. parents should influence this, but when they try to control it, thats crossing a line somewhere to me.

Agreed 100%. I want to let my kids grow up to be the people they want to be, with a good sense of morals which obviously I am biased and think ought to reflect my own. Maybe you would consider that controlling, I consider it ethical. If I do not teach my children what I believe to be right and wrong, what else should I teach them? Where they go from there, whether they end up agreeing with me, is entirely their choice when they are grown up enough. I try to keep things balanced so they feel free to agree or disagree.

Although I do think perhaps you have an idealistic and slightly exaggerated viewpoint on being a parent. The truth is that day to day parenting is (for us anyway) far more mundane than this discussion might lead you to believe. Not to say we should lose sight of the bigger picture, but likewise you cannot live every day for the next. You have to be a realist at least to some extent.

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its hard for me to face the truth that theres good people out there. everyone sometimes seems like a possible enemy.

Perhaps rather than continuing the aggressive counter-demonstrating you feel is necessary, for the timebeing you may want to make exploring this possibility a priority issue. You can always resume, perhaps with a different outlook and new understanding which may ultimately prove more effective.

I can assure you, it has not been my experience of life. But perhaps I am truly one of the lucky ones.