Og

I just generally think that the perspective you're talking about arises from egocentric western minds. EVERYTHING in the east is based on an absence of self as something separate from everything. You are certainly correct if, by self, you mean "ego consciousness." Then buddhism seeks to extinguish this.

But not to "renounce it"... Its by identifying the self with everything. Guess that was the point I was trying to make. I'm not exactly sure which "highly accomplished thinkers" you're talking about, but I'm referencing the works of Joseph Campbell, Heinrich Zimmer, Carl Jung, and others including christians like Anthony deMello and other eastern minds (like the Dalai Lama).

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
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Journeyman

Thanks Og.

debdodd

My buddhism is a form of my own. My buddhism and yoga are neuroscience and electrical engineering and education and computer architecture and the mathematics of complex systems arising from simple rules.

Yoga means "to yolk".. To connect oneself to something. Buddhism is the attainment of enlightenment. My meditation is with a text and with example problems or with application of theory to a problem for a better understanding of it.

In no way does yoga need to be done in a forest in a loin cloth to be yoga. Nor does buddhism require a medicine bowl and orange death shroud robes.[/quote]

Okay ... we shall dub your form of Buddhism as ..... Ogism .... whoa real close to another word

The reason I ask is my son is searching for "something" .... wants to build a kamidana in his room .... funny kid ... I don't mind the searching part, I enjoy talking to him about different religions but I have no desire to have him spend a bunch of money on a Shinto shrine for his bedroom. At his age it's far easier for me to do "passive manipulation" rather than just "hell, No!" gotta stay being the semi-cool Mom .... I couldn't get him interested in the J. Campbell books so I'm looking around for something more his speed. Do you have an KISS books you might suggest? Oh btw KISS is keep it simple/stupid. He's already read Siddhartha but he has no interest in the literature I read. Thanks Og

jaej

Siddharatha, by Herman Hesse?

We read that in english this year. Pretty much everyone hated it. Except me. I love it. And maybe lc.

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Og

I'd recommend stirring wonder him him Show him John Conway's Game of life and give him tools to play with it. Get him into computers and electronics. Show him the northern lights and the vastness of the high deserts of arizona.

Reading about the details of mythology can be wonderful later in life when there's lots to apply the realizations too. Hell.. Take him to church and bible study amongst christians.

Go camping.. foster a respect and appreciation for nature and such.

That's the "keep it simple/stupid" approach. Just foster wonder in real things. No need to get all detailed about the conflict between ideologies of east/west. Get into cooking, make stuff that tastes yummy...

It doesn't need to be literary to be religious

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

lauraclay

He's going to have to go through something really tough before he forms solid opinions. That's what I think anyway. Otherwise everything is just idealistic, nothing truly means anything.
I like Og's ideas. Take him out on a lake at sunset. Like, not the shore, in the middle of the lake. Don't talk. Just float.

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The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Journeyman

Children are so neat. I have 2 girls, both of which are very concerned for me. I am a minister, leaving soon, and raised them in the Church. I have always taught them to think for themselves and to question doctrine, authority, and anyone who is an exclusivist, yet they both are concerned for me. Imagine a 12 and a 11 yeard old asking their Pastor/father if he believes in God and the anxious expressions on thier faces? Although I have taught them to not believe in a literal hell, they have been raped by a campaign of fear that now causes them to fear for a father who they deeply love. What have I done? The problem is more than education or knowledge, it demands that a child tear away from all they have been programmed to believe from birth. Is it fair to expect that? Sorry, I don't really need counseling, although I could tell you stories like today as someone walked into my office needing "spiritual counseling" and wanted me to interpret her God given visions...and I don't even believe.

Anyway...back to the subject. I raised them in Church, but I tempered that with other religious education, nature hikes, and freedom of expression. They are really fascinating. They were talking to their Youth Pastor a couple of months ago and she got upset with them because they disputed the Garden of Eden story. She got upset and demanded that they state out loud what the problem was and why a literal translation wasn't good enough for them. My 12 year old said,"I thought you went to college. Don't you know that the Bible has been tweeked a little and stories of talking snakes are just stories?" I was so proud.

Og

Sounds like you've got great kids with free minds and compassionate hearts

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

debdodd

He is into graphic design and Non west History at present, he is in the school's United Nations club, track team, first Sophomore ever to be yearbook editor and of course girls and hanging out with his buds at the mall or movies .... all the normal stuff of his age ... hates people smoking, works after school in daycare (the little kids love him).

One thing I do want to share with you is that he did the most awesome project in his independent study in graphic arts ... lets see if I can explain it because it was totally cool ... okay .... in the lower center of the project, there is a baby's face and if you look closely into it's eyes one eye has a nuclear explosion in it and the other eye has a gorgeous water fall, over the baby left shoulder, btw, these are only head shots, over the baby's shoulder is the mother/adult female in one of her eyes you see an Iraqi soldier and another is Tienanmen square over the bay's left shoulder is an older woman/?grandma and in one eye you see a old car (model T?) and the other eye is of an old fashioned bi-plane of her era. the background behind all of these is what would appear to be the Smokey mountains because they look a little hazy, you see the mountains on the side of the baby, then you realize it could actually look like a big cloud or some sort of burst from the baby's head .... the more you look at it the more things you see in it ... in the beginning you don't even notice the things in the people's eyes, I was just amazed .... the background is what throws you off b/c you think you're just looking at a landscape with 3 generations of a family superimposed over the top of it and then you realize there's something in the eye and then the kid's head and on and on .... a very cool conceptual piece of work (don't sound too proud do I?)

Believe me we do the whole nature, camping and life thing. As for going thru something tough ... let's see .... he's a adopted, took me almost 9 years to get him. One of my sorority sisters got pregnant and was going to give him up so I took him. He's always known he was adopted but not whom his birth mother was. I made sure he knew his 2 brothers and her (she kept the two of them) and had him spend the night at least a couple of times a year at her house ... we still saw each other socially, so he knew her. Any way he ask me for about 2 years ago who his biological Mom etc was and I told him. She died a year later from crack and speed combination ... had a heart attack .... so yeah he's had a couple of tough things, mostly deaths that have impacted him. Sometimes I think it's because it took me so long to get him that I try and expose him to everything .... a few years ago .... just on a sudden whim, I took him to Cancun, decided on a Tuesday and we were in Cancun by Friday .... swam with dolphins, snorkeled, deep sea fishing (he caught a 30 pound grouper) and he and I are going to Europe for three weeks in June. So exposing him isn't the problem.

In truth the problem is probably me ... how long it took to get him, how many hoops I jumped thru before him, all those other issues that my desires are to give him more experiences than I had. My family was a family of means with no love and I knew I wanted the opposite for him. Maybe it's a coping mechanism for me, or some other psycho babble of my childhood manifesting. I hold back on the material things, the actual buying him everything he wants, instead I expose him to as much as possible.

One of the most unusual things he and I ever did .... and some of you will parents one day so this is a good one to remember ..... every morning on the way to day care, form the time he was 3 or 4 I would ask him "what did you dream about last night" oh course in the beginning I had to explain that dreams were stories that went on in your brain while you are sleeping. I ask him every morning and finally he "got" what I was talking about ..... I have to tell you ... at 4 years old he was telling me the most colorful convoluted stories that you can imagine. At four he told me that his friend Lisa (this dream friend of his) came and picked him up on her flying eagle. I ask where did you guys go .... here he is 4 years old and out popped she took me to Detroit .... no way he'd heard of Detroit at 4 ... surprised I ask him "ohhhh reeeeaaally?" skeptical I then asked and what did you do there? Oh she took me to meet her brother" Ohhhhh reeeaaaallly? still thinking this is odd ... "so what his name?" "John" he replied Oh John huh? So what was John's last name? out pops "Havery, John Havery" .... now we know absolutely no Havery's, no one in Detroit and out of this little 4 year old pops this convoluted story with geographical locations I know he has no concept of, and people who's last name we know nothing of .... after that he would just continue these fantastic stories of "Lisa" and places they had visited or things they had done. Then by 6 years old, Lisa and the Eagle had died along with it my glimpse into his nightly world but it was sooooo awesome to have a little kid tell you all this stuff. Those of you who are around 4 year olds know that they're still eating crayons and putting rocks in their pockets.

I think it's me that needs to be more patient. I came into my awareness so much later that I think I want for him not to take so many years, and shield him from some of the crap that I experienced ..... I know, I know experience is important for people to live thru but some of my own experiences, no one needs to go thru .... I won't elaborate .. emotional pain is involved and I locked that monster away in a closet a long time ago.

jaej: yes it was Herman Hess ... he wasn't overly thrilled with it.

Oh and Og he does love mythology and is in third year of Latin ... in fact he is doing independent studies this summer in Math and Graphic arts. Which surprised me, I thought he'd rather just hang out at the pool with friends.This is the first year I have seen him in love with learning ...

Thanks for everyone's input ... esp. LC and JAEJ ... you two are so close to his age that I'm sure you can relate .... he's well rounded and well adjusted, it more than likely me just being a Mom ..... what can I say I love and adore the kid!

debdodd

Don't you think the way some kids think is just awesome!!!! It sounds like your two are special. Kids can break things down so easily and adults can make them so complex.

For me, my greatest achievement in life is how Alex has turned out to be so open and compassionate.

For the longest time I never wanted to bring any kids into this world because I felt it was too messed up. When I brought him home from the hospital I held him in my arms for two days straight! I even slept with him in my arms ... he saved my life. Truly .... saved me from myself.