Faith

*Nods honestly with sadness at the misinterpreatation*

You do not understand the Lord's ways. So you mock and scoff. Hmmm...

Og

Pride cometh before the fall, Faith. You certainly seem so certain of your way. So much unfounded pride and ego fueling crazy talk. You've got "the way" here and you're so certain of it.

But it's an empty certainty. All you have is a book that has been manipulated and authored by Man. You have a christ story that is an exact replica of the story of the Buddha that is 500 years older than the christ story and you think it's some sort of wonderful amazing thing. You don't have the first idea about the construction of your religion.

But you've got pride. I at least honestly admit that we don't know everything about the details of our history and our world. And it makes me stronger than you for that approach.

You've built your house upon the sand. And you don't even know it.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Number 6

didn't Jesus say:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

and many (most people in the fundamentalist stream) Christians do believe that you go to hell if you're not a Christians.

so Moses is not in heaven? since he saw god and talked to him. what about Abraham? and since Jesus and the god are one and since Jesus performed miracles, thus proving he is god, will the apostles not go to heaven?
What about the people who saw the red-sea miracle, the killing of the first born etc.?


O ye healer, first heal thyself.

MartheGod

You seem to be implying that you are the perfect Christian. Especially since you like to judge people so much. Do YOU have comprehension problems? Because I asked if the BIBLE says God doesn't send people to Hell who didn't know him and cite the verses/passages. I'm not asking about your thoughts, which you warp so much anyway to fit your beliefs... My reading comprehension is fine, thank you. I'm certainly not the one who needs to work on that...

"And God does not show himself, cause no one deserves eternal life for believeing in something they saw." Faith, that makes no sense at all. Why wouldn't we deserve eternal punishment? What the heck is God's problem? That is the weakest explanation on the planet.

Faith, you are really starting to scare me. We need to work on your basic thinking skills. Let me rephrase this: To survive in your PHYSICAL body, you need food. To get food, you need money. Understand? Quit being silly. If I decided to jump in front of a bus, that would have nothing to do with God. That'd be on me. God does not determine who will live or die. Oh, and if God decides who will live and die, why does he kill babies who were JUST BORN? That makes absolutely no sense. No, you can't compare God to a judge because God is unfair (I've never heard of a judge torturing an innocent person for eternity) AND he's supposed to be ALL-KNOWING. Judges are sometimes unfair, but they are not all-knowing like God. Oh, I didn't know that both punishment and reward were eternal. ::slaps forehead:: Thanks for reminding me. The point I'm trying to make is WHY there is ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. God's the one who sends people to Hell, not humans.

I'm not making assumptions if I believe God judges wrongly. That's called an OPINION and it has nothing to do with my reading skills. Many GOOD people complain about Hell because it's twisted, disgusting, and wrong. Yes, it's wrong. Torturing someone for not stroking your ego is wrong. Desperate people who want to live however they want? Right... I try to live my life the best I can. I try to be nice to people and not hurt their feelings. I want to become a teacher and volunteer. I would be living like God wants me too, but I'd still complain about the concept of eternal torture. I would not want my worst enemy to suffer pain forever. The way you describe God, I and everyone else (Including YOU) needs to worry about that. I would rather not spend the rest of my life crying and having nervous breakdowns like some ex-Christians have done.

Why do you always have to sound like a smarty pants? I don't make assumptions. I merely state my opinions and things I observe (i.e. Prayers don't come true and you need to stop lying because you know it's true) and ask questions. Some of which you STILL have not answered yet.

Faith

READ ALL OF THIS!

I never said I was a perfect Christian, and there are things about God I do not yet fully understand, but I do not rejct because I do not understand, rather instead of flapping my mouth randomely at wonders too great for me to know, I try to understand why.

And I read something that interested me and showed me I was in fact wrong about people who haven't heard the gospel not going to hell. I did not interpret it wrong because of the way God said it, but rather because I did not take the time to fully understand what it was he was saying.

Take the time to read the message in blue, and don't reply with putting the message down, because then you are basicly saying you are omniscient and fully understand God's ways, which NONE of us do. None of us.

I notice alot of people do not understand many things, but most people will scoff at what they do not understand. And if they do understand it, they wont admit it because either it would mean they have to live differently, or have to admit their wrong in public.

As Jesus said, "Does anyone ever bring in a lamp and put it under a bowl or under the bed? Doesn't he put it on the lampstand? Whatever is hidden away will be brought out into the open, and whatever is covered up will be uncovered." Mark 4 21-22.

Jesus also assures us of the power of faith. Keep it in mind when reading the part in blue. "He was not far from the house when the officer sent friends to tell him, 'Sir, don't trouble yourself. I do not deserve to have you come into my house, neither do I consider myself worthy to come to you in person. Just give the order, and my servant will get well. I, too, am a man placed under the authority of superior officers, and I have soldiers under me. I order this one "Go!" and he goes; I order that one, "Come!" and he comes; and I order my slave "Do this!" and he does it.' Jesus was surprised when he heard this; he turned around and said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, I have never found faith like this even in Israel!' " Luke 7:6-9

"The apostles said to the Lord, 'Make our faith greater.' The Lord answered, 'If you had faith as big as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, "Pull yourself up by the roots and planet yourself in the sea!" and it would obey you.' " Luke 17:5-6

Also keep note of this, "Jesus said to his disciples, 'Things that make people fall into sin are bound to happen, but how terrible for the one who makes them happen! It would be better for him if a large millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch what you do! If your brother sins, rebuke him him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in one day, and each time he comes to you saying, "I repent", you must forgive him' " Luke 17:1-4







What happens to people who never hear the gospel?

Along with the long history of Christian tradition, and Biblical teaching, we think that those who have not heard the gospel of Christ will not be saved. Many people claim that this is not fair because, they argue, “How can God send someone to hell for not believing in Christ, when that person never had a chance to make a decision to accept the gospel?”
First, we do not believe that God will send people to hell for not accepting Christ, when in fact they have never even heard the name of Christ. This is a misunderstanding. We believe that people who have not heard the gospel will go to hell for the same reason anyone else does: they are sinners in need of salvation, and their sin makes them deserve God’s holy punishment. Without a redeemer to cover over their sins, and graciously forgive them, they cannot be saved.

In fact, when they stand before God, they may be so bold as to quip, “But God, I did not even know you sent your Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world! I have an excuse – I never heard a missionary preach to me.” But Paul answers this objection in the opening chapter of Romans:

For the truth about God is known to [all men] instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes. . . . (Rom. 1:19-23, NLT)
Paul is saying that all men are without excuse, because they know about God, but they do not worship him as God. It is true that some people may never hear the name of Jesus. But all men have gazed at a starry sky, or seen landscapes that testify to God’s creative work. Yet these people do not honor this God as the true God. If they are unfaithful with a little bit of information about God, why should we suppose they will be faithful with even more knowledge about Christ?
No one can be saved without the gospel, because without the gospel we are all dead in our sins, left to perish. Our sin is a problem even if we do not know about the Bible and the salvation is proclaims. This is why Paul said, “God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law” (Rom. 2:12, NLT). Salvation comes only to those who know the name of Jesus Christ: “There is no other name [under] all of heaven for people to call on to save them” (Acts 4:12, NLT). Hence again Paul could say,

For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? (Rom. 10:13-15, NLT)
No one will be saved apart from the gospel.
But what about those people who, prompted by God’s grace, truly seek for God, even though they have never heard the gospel? The answer is that God’s promise holds true: seek and you will find. The Bible gives an example of this. A man named Cornelius had never heard about Christ, yet his prayers in seeking God prompted God to send the gospel to him.

The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God . . . Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved. (Acts 10:4; 11:13-14)

There seems to be a direct connection here. Cornelius’s prayers were heard, and as a result, Peter was sent to preach the gospel through which Cornelius was saved.

We need to notice a few things. First, Cornelius was not a Christian. Second, he was seeking God through prayer. Third, he was not saved until he heard the gospel preached by Peter.

And Cornelius is not the only one. This kind of thing still happens today. Warrasa Wanga was a man who belonged to the Gedeo tribe in Ethiopia. They believed in a being called Magano, who created everything. Not many people followed this god, but Warrasa Wanga prayed for Magano to reveal himself to his people. Then he had a vision of white-skinned men coming and setting up shiny-roofed dwellings on a nearby hill. A voice said, "These men will bring you the message from Magano, the God you seek. Wait for them." Eight years later, in 1948, two Canadian missionaries came and set up their tents exactly as in Warrasa's dream. Within thrity years there were thousands of Christians among the Gedeo people. Warrasa was one of the first converts.[1]

This shows God will send missionaries to save those who seek him, an all this despite that fact that without calling on the name of Christ, no one will be saved. It makes good sense. What if it were the other way around? That is, what if people could be saved without the gospel? What would the purpose of evangelism be? If there are some good people out there who will be saved without a knowledge of Christ, why bother telling them about Christ? If you do tell them the gospel, you take a big risk. They might reject what you say and damn themselves! But if you had never witnessed to them, they would have been saved. By telling them gospel, you actually sent them to hell.

Of course this is ridiculous. If people can be saved without the gospel, then there is no point to evangelism. That is the point I am trying to get across. But if we see all men as dead in sins, deserving God’s wrath, and without a hope besides the gospel, we will be motivated to bring the gospel to them.

Og

How do you know all of this is correct, faith, if, by your own admission, you do not question it and that the act of questioning is, in itself, evil?

I'm sure it feels very real to you. I'm sure that's been the excuse for lots of crazy and evil actions throughout human history.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

MartheGod

Faith, I didn't say you said you were. I said you were implying that you were the perfect Christian. Or maybe I should change it: To the reader, you sound like you are saying you are the perfect Christian. I've tried to listen for God. I've tried to understand what God wants. But God doesn't speak to me. That isn't my fault. Since he will not tell me his there, I can't believe in him. It's impossible to believe in something that does not respond to you. I am still waiting for him though.

I'd assume that if God was with you, you'd perfectly understand what he wanted.

Okay, this is making me physically nauseous. If God sends people to Hell even though they do not know of him, God is a sick ****. See, even you don't believe that God should send people who never know of him to Hell. You know something is wrong with this. You know how unfair and twisted this is. This is why I cannot worship God if he is that way.

They don't honor God as the true God? Duh! How would they if they don't know of the true God! They aren't "unfaithful" if they don't even know. If they had knowledge, they might believe. Justifying that they should go to Hell because they "might not believe" is stupid. Please stop trying to justify this. You know it's wrong. Humans weren't born knowing the Christian God. That is why they don't believe in or know him. God will not send missionaries to everyone and people have died before their town receives missionaries. So you believe that people should deserve God's wrath because evangelisim wouldn't exist? You are very, very confused. You really have no idea what God wants then. If God wouldn't be a little bitch and show himself, everyone would believe in him. There would be no problems. If God does send innocent people to Hell, I will not accept the Kingdom of Heaven because I would be mentally traumatized. I'm serious. You wouldn't be? My psyche cannot handle such horror.

Faith

"There is no fossil evidence bearing on the question of insect origin." -Frank M. Carpenter, evolutionist

"The geological record has so far provided no evidence as to the origin of fishes" R. J. Norman, evolutionist

"If there has been evolution of life, the absence of the requisite fossils in the rocks older than the Cambarian is puzzling." Marshall Kay and Edwin H. Colbert, evolutionists

"The real origin of horses is unknown." -Tracy I. Storer, evolutionist

"The best place to start evolution of the vertabrates is the imagination." -Homer W. Smith, evolutionist

"As yet we have not been able to trace the phylogenetic history of a single group of modern plants from it's beginning to the present." -C. A. Arnold, evolutionist

"...but I still think that to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." -E. J. H. Corner, evolutionist

"The first and most important steps of animal evolution remain even more obscure than those of plant evolution." -Paul B. Weiss, evolutionist

Differences between Ape and man:

Man- Less acute facial angle, small canine teeth, parabolic teeth arangement, smalled jawbone significantly, skull attaches to spinal collumn at bottom of skull, neck muscles at bottom of skull, cranial capacity between 700 and 2200 cc

Ape- large canine teeth, slightly rectangular teeth arangement, broader molars, larger jawbone quite significantly, spinal collumn attaches near back of skull, neck muscles at the back of skull, cranial capacity between 100 and 650 cc

"Extinct creatures"

First I would like to mention the type of monkey that was supposed to be extinct for hundreds of millions of years. Over 40 of them were discovered on an island, alive.

"For many years, evolutionists taught that the coelacanth was the ancestor of the first anphimbians. The fish were often depicted crawling onto land from shallow water. According to evolution, coelacanths should have been extinct about 60 million years ago. Evolutionists were so confident of this conclusion that they used the coelacanth as an index fossil.

In 1938 however, a live coelcanth was caught and found to match the fossil version in every detail; since then, more than a dozen have been captured. Evolutionists were surprised to find that the coelacanths are deep-sea fish, and as a result are unlikely to ever crawl out on land! Their internal organs are also completely fishlike and bear no reseblence to those of amphibians."

"In 1994, many evolutionists were astounded when a grove of large "Jurassic" trees were found alive and well in the deep recesses of an Australian rain forest. In the fossil record, these trees (dubbed Wollemi pines) are often found in the same strata as the dinosaurs. One Australian botanist said that the discovery was "the equivelent of finding a small dinosaur still alive on earth."

Other "living fossils" that "mysteriously" disapeared from the fossil record but are still living today include the tuatara, a reptile which supposedly became extinct 135 milliong years ago; a type of mollusk (Neopilina galatheae) said to have become extinct 280 million years ago; and a "primitive" Paleozoic crustacean (Hutchinsoniella macrocantha) thought to have become extinct 300 million years ago.

Some scientists speculate that even more interesting creatures may potentialy still exist as "living fossils." On April 25, 1977, a Japanese commercial fishing vessel snagged the rotting carcass of a large, unidentified sea creature off the coast of New Zealand; scientists estimated that the creature had been dead about a month. Although the crew did not bring the badly decaeyed carcass aboard ship for fear that it would spoil their valuable cargo, the examined and photographed it as it hung over the stern of the vessel and then dropped it back into sea. Scientists saw that it closely resembled a plesiosaur, a dinosaur-like sea creature thought to have become extinct 65 million years ago."

"Even fossils that do not "disappear" from the fossil reccord can cause problems for the theory of evolution. Horseshoe crabs, for example, supposedly evolved in the beginning of the Triassic period, 230 million years ago; however, fossil horseshoe crabs are identical to modern horseshoe crabs. The ever present cockroach, said to have evolved 320 million years ago, also remains unchanged. In fact, most insects, and many other modern animals, are identical to their fossil counterparts in nearly every aspect."

Ironic how God prophesied to the people thousands of years ago the theories people would have today about all things continuing as they were since the beginning of creation. And when scientists said that all these creatures mentioned were extinct, the are found recently after.

2Peter 3:3-6

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Luke 12 54:56

Jesus said also to the people, "When you see a cloud comnig up in the west, at once you say that it is going to rain-and it does. And when you feel the south wind blowing, you say that it is going to get hot-and it does. Hypocrites! You can look at the earth and sky and predict the weather; why, then, don't you know the meaning of this present time?


Effects of The Flood

Keep this in mind, "In order for a plant or animal to become a fossil, it must be protected from scavengers and decomposition. Most of the time, this occurs when the animal is quickly burried by water-borne sediments-conditions like those we would expect to be present upon the earth during and immediately following a worldwide flood."

"Darwin and other early evolutionists believed that the fossil record we see is the result of the slow accumalation of fossils over millions, even billions, of years. But the very existence of a fossil implies catastrophic burial. This is true because in order for a fossil to form, it must be burried quickly, before it decays and its bones are scattered or decomposed.

In the fossil record, we often find millions of organisms, predator and prey alike, jumbled together in mass sedimentary graves that imply sudden, violent burrial.

A hill near Agate springs, Nebraska, contains the fossilised and closely packed bones of about 9000 animals, including rhinoceroses, camels, giant boars, and other exotic animals, all jumbled together. It would appear that whole heards were destroyed by some great catastrophe that threw their bodies together quickly and violently. Because the bones show none of the usual signs of weathering or mutilation by scavengers, geologists conclude that the animals were buried quickly before the elements and the scavengers could do their work.

Fishes have been found entombed in beds of fossils that extend for miles. These beds are found in many places in all parts of the globe, and the fossils generally indicate that the fishes died and were buried suddenly. It is rare for any fish to be fossilized today, yet many fossil beds contain over a billion fish all jumbled together. The large number of fossils seems to indicate that the fishes were alarmed and fleeing danger when death overtook them.

In Bergundy, France, there stands an isolated hill more than 1000 feet above the surrounding plain. Near the top of this hill is a fissure crowded with fossilized animal skeletons. These fossils are unusual in that the skeletons are of animals which normally have a predator-prey relationship; predators are found right alongside animals that would normally be their prey. It seems that the animals scaled this hill together, died, and were burried in a common grave. One could expect to find predators and prey burried alongside eachother on this lonely hill if the animals were attempting to escape rising flood waters.

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The An-Jel

Scientific proof or Faith based proof... Physical proof man

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

WilliamBlue

This has happened a lot and still happens today, it is caused by carbon dioxide poisoning. A volcanic fissure gives off gas(which is odorless and colorless) which collects in a depression. Along comes an animal which tries to feed on the grasses that grow in the carbon dioxide rather well. It passes out and dies do to lack of oxygen. Now we have a dead body in the middle of this deadly gas (which also helps preserve the body), and along comes a predator whom having seen this fresh plump meal settles in to eat it and it too is overcome by the gas and dies and this cycle continues, etc, etc. Very simple and elegant way to get all the fossil in one place and proven to happen.

I think you should try to find better examples.

Bill

__________________
When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?