Og

Teachings? Paul shaped the philosophical and moral stances of the church. Jesus' teachings were of transcendent awareness. Focusing on paul is to focus on the dogma and idols while focusing on jesus provides a vehicle to identity with christ/buddha/whatever.

I could quote many places where the gnostic gospels (unearthed in 1945) present concepts that directly contradict Paul's "all things of the world are refuse" approach to things. Instead of seeking unity with the notion of christ and becoming christ (see gospel of thomas), paul relegates us to a lesser and fundamentally flawed stance.

Paul offers enslavement in the world of sin ("flesh is weak") and some sort of subservient posture to the divine while Christ offers a path of transcendence of sin (read as categories of thought, not "doing bad things").

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

Hi og
I feel like a puppy dog following you around.
I read this thread with some amusement and surprise. The surprise is that you consider yourself Christian, just that in the previous posts of yours, that I have come across, I did not get a sense that this is where you are coming from, (this is not meant as a judgement). The amusing part; the Christians that disagreed with you made no attempt to understand; at least that's how it appeared to me.

So tell me if I understand your position or belief call it whatever is:

• You consider yourself Christian
• There might or might not be a deity (probably not)
• The Bible contains metaphors for we how should live/understand our lives
• Traditional interpretions of the Bible by today's Christian religions (literal or partially literal) are incorrect

I was wondering if you could suumarize your 'religious' beliefs in bullet form? I apologize this may be a little rude but it's not meant so. And from the little bit I have read, my request is very un-Campbellesque.

Also for more traditional Christians a question or two?

For whom was the Bible written?
Who has the best interpretation and why?

Just curious

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

I consider myself to be a TRUE Christian in exploring the teachings of Christ. I look at the teachings in terms of their historical context in the 500+ years preceding the life of Christ and I look at them in terms of the ethnic inflection of the myths of man that are represented in the Christ story. I look at it in terms of the Buddhist story (of which it is a direct translation into western symbols) and with the aid of the coptic texts from nag hamadi such as the gospel according to thomas which is diametrically opposed to the gospel of paul (the philosophical contents of the canonical gospels).

I do not do this as some wacko fringe person. I do it with the aid of historians from accredited universities who have peer reviewed papers and books on the topic.

Understanding Christ's message is easy when you look at it in terms of humanity and not myopically from the perspective of the catholic church and the middle east and the hebrew culture.

I really don't care if 80% of america calls itself christian and think that fundamentalism and literalism is the only way to be a true christian. This mass of ignorant people do can not touch the rock hard evidence that is plain for all to explore. Most are just afraid.

I am a true Christian.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

Thanks og
Traditional Christians I think will find this very scary. I'm not sure that I don't find it scary, in the sense that I have to question what are the beliefs I have (whatever they are) and reconcile them with with your very different "model".

I presume that you have studied other faiths, so could you have ended in a similar belief "model" but with Islam or Hinduism at its core assuming that you came from that culture? I ask in the sense that JC iterates that the myths are common to various religions and time (but the metaphors do change with the circumstances). I'm not sure I have made my question clear?

Thanks again ...all the best

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

There's no belief involved on my part. There is only transcendent truth and evidence. It has nothing to do with me. I try to be as transparent as possible to these ideas (i.e. people see through me to them).

JC speaks to cultural ideas and elementary ideas. The elementary components do not show up specifically as themselves, but only as cultural expressions. I see these ideas in Christ. I do not know about Islam and am not all that interested in finding out. If they connect to the transcendent nature of existence, then good for them.

Ethnic ideas can be all manner of crazy. That's the case with much of christianity in popular religion. I am also culturally from a christian background.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

Thanks
OK belief is the wrong word
So the path you have chosen is based on evidentiary Christianity
So how would you "define" it; just so I can get the nomenclature correct?
Or am I missing something?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

Not sure what you're asking.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

I'm not sure I understood your previous post
I think part of the problem my dictionary does not help me with the meaning of transcendent.

If there is only "transcendent truth and evidence" .... You are being transparent .... I think understand (even though the word transcendent has belief implied in it?).

Nevertheless you must interpret the evidence and transcendent truth at least for your own benefit? Or is it a truth held a self evident... (never quite believed in that).... must be an American thing?

I just can't help but seeing a 'belief' in this? Though you say "there is no belief involved on your part"?

So if it is not believing ...what would you call it?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

I don't call it anything really. Transcendence is the notion of categories of thought as illusions. This is something that is necessarily true (i.e. true and false exist because we're talking about them). We can not exist and interact without the notion of boundaries and categories of thought.

But what all the religions speak to is that these are ultimately illusions. That is what transcendence is.

Evidence is that there is a you and a me having this discussion yet the reality is that just because your skin doesn't enfold my neurons, we aren't really different entities. Etc.

This is just the way the universe works. Look at it. Categories of thought define our perception and our concepts. It's not a complex statement to make or one that stretches the imagination.

This is what the pyramid on the US dollar bill is (an old masonic symbol). Everywhere on the pyramid, there is an opposite side (categories of thought and dichotomy). The only place that this is not true is at the apex of the pyramid, and at that place, you find the eye of the divine.

This is what jesus meant when he said "love your enemies" and "hate your family/friends/life".. It's what the story of the garden of eden speaks to (i.e. eating of the fruit of good/evil casts us into the field of time). Jesus' act on the cross is symbolic of the tree of eternal life that returns us to the garden of eden. Eat of Jesus' body at communion and you are conquering original sin (i.e. what cast us out of the garden) and you achieve eternal life (this is what the christians will agree on). Jesus is symbolically the fruit of the tree of eternal life which returns us to paradise while the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil cast us out of the garden.

Jesus' teachings are entirely of this nature. The point is not that jesus is separate from you and me, but that you and I are both christ beings. The christ in jesus and his connection to the divine is within all of us.

Christianity is about a psychological transformation... It's not about physical belief in a literal thing.. And I don't care that the vast majority of the world disagrees. They're just wrong (and also uninformed and their position is not valuable when seeking truth).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

Hi
I'm still not sure I understand, but I'll mull it over and get back to you again on your explanation. Your end point I think I understand; it's just your path I'm having trouble tracing. My wife says I'm trying too hard?

going back to would it be fair to say that with your version of Christianity ( I just don't have a good definition) one could have come to an equivalent point using all the other myths that JC interprets?

Another question when the myths were told originally were they told as literal stories or as metaphors, have you come across evidence one way or the other?

thanks

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams