girlinterrupted364

i recently got into a interesting dicussion with a christian youth pastor at a christian event called kingdom bound my loving friends dragged me. he said to me, jesus loves you, and i said whos jesus.. o i think he just served me my taco bell. we eventually got past taco bell (4th meal...) and i asked him if he believed in the bible literally, he said, o absolutly, so then i said are you catholic? and he said no. then i went on the explain the catholic belief in the eucharist (spelling?) and asked him he believed that when he took communion he was truly eating the body of christ, not just bread and grape juice. he no of course its not the body of christ. but the passage in which the first communion takes place, jesus saves, quite literally, this is my body, take and eat. so of course a rather confused youth pastor backtracked saying that some things are symbolic while others are literal. im not sure you can believe both about the bible, it either has to be all literal, or all symbolic since i dont really believe in god and dont really care that much what he says. i think its symbolic, a rather well written nathaniel hawthorn novel.

__________________
Non ducor, DUCO

I wish on shooting stars

I am tired, Beloved,
of chafing my heart against
the want of you;
of squeezing it into little inkdrops,
And posting it.
~Amy Lowell, "The Letter"

Og

I like your signature girlinterrupted364.. "I'm not led, I lead"

Glad to have you on the forums.

And yeah, you can actually test the bread/wine after it's been blessed. It has not been physically changed into blood or bread. But really, you can't get out of the necessary link between literal jesus ressurection and redemption and the necessity for a literal garden of eden (which is even more silly than the claims of christ's acts).

I wonder what you call yourself if you find identity with christ instead of a desire to "try to be like him even though you're flawed?"

If that's not christian, then I'm whatever that is. But I'm baptized and confirmed and have relatives that are protestant ministers. I've given inductive bible studies and have led worship services in music as I played the guitar on sunday mornings... I've been in the play godspell at my church and have gone on mission trips to mexico and other places in the states. All of that and I find identity with christ.

I just happen to think that its very silly to believe in the literal stuff. Metaphorical meaning is much more powerful in my opinion.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

duck

Welcome from me, also, girl.

And, OG? Awesome statement. The metaphor is, indeed, so much more powerful.

girlinterrupted364

that was kinda my point, did jesus necessarily feed 5000 people with a couple of loaves of bread? of course not, thats obviously symbolc, however, most protestant christians believe that is literal, and yet dont believe that jesus could change bread into body (a rather digusting thought, ill admit) so what gives? i guess im looking for some christian imput. i mean, who are we to decide whats literal and what interpretive?

__________________
Non ducor, DUCO

I wish on shooting stars

I am tired, Beloved,
of chafing my heart against
the want of you;
of squeezing it into little inkdrops,
And posting it.
~Amy Lowell, "The Letter"

jaej

Og, it surprises me how many many intelligent christians don't believe the young-earth bull****, but they still cling to christianity. Do they just not see it, or does it come from an unwillingness to accept how their god is false? Also I suspect the reason so many people are still fundies is because they want god to exist, so they believe what they have to to believe in god, however incredible those beliefs may be.

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

duck

Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner.

However, jaej, I really do believe that a large majority of christians look at the bible in largely symbolic, metaphorical terms. I have been doing a small amount of research on the rise of christian fundamentalism and have found that since the movement began to rise in the early 20th century, one of their mainstays is to infiltrate congregations and denominations both, and then to try and force their belief on the majority.

jaej

What a bunch of fags...there are few things that bug me more than fundamentalist christians.

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

girlinterrupted364

and then the homosexuals....dun dun dun. we believe that we are right all others are wrong. so go to hell you sinner.

(that was my parents) lol

__________________
Non ducor, DUCO

I wish on shooting stars

I am tired, Beloved,
of chafing my heart against
the want of you;
of squeezing it into little inkdrops,
And posting it.
~Amy Lowell, "The Letter"

Tomasz

Yes, yes, yes. We have absurds of the Bible. Now what do we do with this ? Mhh ... oh, we employ theologians(you're a very good one) and turn these stupidities into a set of metaphores and allegories so that reasonable thinking people like you could accept it and for stupid masses we leave literal interpretation. That methaphorically transformed Christianity looks almost like grown up buddhism and is almost unrecognizable for overwhelming majority of Christians who literally believe in God as the creator of the universe and Jesus' torment on the cross and consider it to be the core of Christianity.

That methaphorical transformation of Christianity is nothing but conscious effort to turn it into something more reasonable. You pick up bits of the Bible and interprete it in the way that makes it acceptable for you, but in fact that's not an interpretation anymore, that's an obvious conversion and not to see it is intelectual dishonesty.

You seem to say that by any reference(less or more methaphorical) to the Bible you can call yourself a Christian. Well, you're in the sense, but in the sense you may call yourself anything you like

For me you're an atheist undercover, a member of the fifth column of Christianity which is about to bring about its end

__________________
It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts - Sherlock Holmes

Og

I tend to think of this as a reclaimation of christian philosophy which is entirely identical to buddhism except for the ethnic inflections. I don't see this as destructive to christianity at all. The buddhists tell a story of The Buddha being born from his mother's side at the level of the heart and of cutting his princely top knot and casting it up to heaven where it was caught. But none of the buddhists actually believe that this is literally true.

I believe that this is the essence of the metaphors. The are pointers (from a time when we didn't have science) to the transcendent mystery of existence. I think this is clear to ANYONE who studies comparative mythology and history. That a large volume of christians are stuck on the literal truth of the religion is a product of the dark ages and of a church led by saint peter's philosophy. Peter was the idiot child of the group. Even at the end he was still pulling his sword and cutting the ear off of a centurian. Even at the end jesus had to continue to try to give him his message of peace by saying "put down that sword".... And even to this day, outside the vatican, the statue of saint peter still has his sword.

The catholic church is real, but so is the study of history and world religion. I don't feel at all intimidated by this old collection of churches and bishops with access to physical archeology of the area and of the other religions of the world.


Not acceptable... I don't accept a lot of what is in the bible. It is interpreted in a way that is based on rationality and intelligence and cross correlation with facts about history that exist in archeology and the other sciences. It's not a conversion. It's an understanding based on fact and not (wrong/ignorant) opinions that have been handed down.

This bold statement is the essence of Joseph Campbell's work and I recommend it to all people. He's the one responsible for star wars and the matrix and all manner of amazing understandings in the world of art and religion.

I like to say that he's uncovered the DNA of religion and the human psyche. The fundamental building blocks. There is one myth of man and there are many ethnic inflections of it.

I think that ethnic religions NEED to come to an end given the nature of the world and globalization and interconnectedness that is unparalleled in the history of mankind. I think it's necessary and that all the conflicts in the world can be directly tied to this kind of geocentric/ethnocentric crap.

But I know what the core of chrsitianity is and its the same as the core of buddhism and many american indian faiths and others. It's not this silly man in a throne god literal crap. It's interconnectedness and transcendence of categories of thought. That is jesus' message. Its plain for any intelligent person to see in the gospels (both canon and non).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are