Tomasz

Being cultural Christian and showing some appreciation for the culture doesn't make you a Christian in the least degree as well as me. You deny central claims of Christianity :
- God exists and created the world
- torment and death of Jesus - actual event in which God shows the distance we've wandered from him - the basis of transformation of human situation

You seem to twist the idea of Christianity so that you could call yourself a Christian
Cherry picking fragments of Jesus teachings out of the Bible doesn't make a Christian either, well unless you want to follow characteristic obscurantism of theological reasoning

__________________
It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts - Sherlock Holmes

Og

Thats neat that you think that. I suppose you advocate a literal interpretation of everything in the bible including a young earth creation stance in order to be christian? And no one else can be christian unless they take such a literalist interpretation?

What about the rest of the catholic idol system and saint setup? Do we have to believe that Mary was raised full body into heaven literally? I hear that the pope (the line of st. peter who, in the bible was tasked with creating the church) claims that catholicism is the only true christianity...

Your analysis of my interpretation of christianity is interesting, but not really relevant. Particularly if you actually think that adam and eve where tricked by a talking snake with legs and that cherubs with a fiery sword guard a gate somewhere on earth (or think that a christian must think this).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

Tomasz

Oh really ? I had no idea that saying that deying central claims of Christianity precludes being a Christian had this particular implication. I'm still baffled by your suggestion.

Let's have a look at this "interpretation". Someone can be an atheist and say : "I don't believe in God, but I've read the New Testament and you know what, I actually like some teachings of Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter he didn't exist, it has no bearing on his claims"

Who do we have here then ? We have a Christian atheist. So protestants are christians, catholics are christians and even atheists can be christians.
Isn't that cute ?

You deny the core ideas of Christianity. Whatever differentiates for example catholics and protestants that is not denial of core ideas of Christianity as religion.
One of consequences of streching definition of any term to the point that it becomes flexible as a bubble gum is that it starts to mean almost everything so in fact it means nothing

__________________
It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts - Sherlock Holmes

girlinterrupted364

see heres the problem with the word "christian" it implys, mostly, that you are a protestant believer in the jewish god. lets face it. christianity means that you believe in god and his immortality yada yada yada. but really protestants (and not getting into catholics because i havent studied it enuf) follow their pastors around like puppy dogs. o well pastor jim really convicted me on this. excuse me, do you believe in god or your pastor. god never convicts christians, their leaders do. if we were really following god or jesus fundamental christians wouldnt be able to get away with stuff like, o the homosexals are all going to hell, and o shes not a virgin, damn whore is never gonna get a proper bible believing husband now. hello people read the bible, i dont mean just the passages your preacher pulls out for manipulation during the sermon, but the whole thing. jesus preached tolerance and love for all people, whether or not you agree. start showing some and maybe the rest of the world wouldnt dislike you all so much.

__________________
Non ducor, DUCO

I wish on shooting stars

I am tired, Beloved,
of chafing my heart against
the want of you;
of squeezing it into little inkdrops,
And posting it.
~Amy Lowell, "The Letter"

WilliamBlue

Amen!

__________________
When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?

Og

I follow christ's religion, not the religion of christ. If you boil it down to being literally believing in god, then you MUST literally believe in the literal garden of eden. Without the garden of eden being literal, the act of jesus on the cross doesn't make any sense as anything but metaphorical as well.

You have to be a young earth creationist to be a true christian if it's about "believing that jesus is the literal son of some deity named yaweh"... Without the literal original sin, the literal redemption on the cross doesn't make any sense.

The idea that I'm stretching the teachings of christ is absurd. What I do is to reject the supernatural crap associated with the religion that is clearly false. What remains is the religion of christ. It is a ethnic idea of the western world based around the same elementary idea of buddhism and other faiths. The notions are of connectedness of all things and the notion of transcendence of categories of thought (i.e. the metaphorical meaning of redemption of original sin which was attainment of categories of thought - fruit of knowledge of good and evil).

Not only do I consider myself christian, I consider myself to be christ. This is a scholarly and historic and world view driven christian approach. It is not some provincial idiotic santa claus like belief in some guy with a white beard.

People who think that christ's message is all about something elsewhere (i.e. heaven or 2000 years ago) miss the point entirely. Christianity is a philosophy of life. It is a religion that links us to the human experience.

The notion that it requires literal belief in a deity is idiotic. What are labeled "core ideas" in the above posts are really just provincial peripheral ideas to the religion. The elementary ideas of christianity can be found in cultures all over the world.

My christianity is based on a tradition of individuals like thomas jefferson and joseph campbell (amongst others)

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

Skepticologist

Very well put. I have a christian friend who purports to be a strong believer, but relegates notions like a 6,000-year-old earth to the relam of allegory vs. actuality. Even some bible-thumpers can see when so much evidence is stacked against literalist believers.

I applaud his attempt to respond to overwhelming scientific evidence, but I've warned him that a christian's first step away from absolute literalism puts him on a very slippery slope.

Your observation regarding the necessary connection between the literal redemption and the literal original sin expresses that idea better than I've been able to previously. Thanks.

I think I'll call him up this afternoon...

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Og

It doesn't mean I don't think that the story of redemption on the cross is not a powerful one. I personally think that the notion of some innate flaw in us is ridiculous and false. What I do think is the case is that the rise of human consciousness and the fundamental human experience is based in the notion of "categories of thought" that define all of experiences. Things like good and evil, true and false, fear and desire, birth and death, left and right, past and future. EVERYTHING within the realm of experience is defined by these categories.

This is what is meant in all religions by the goal of enlightenment or eternal life or the kingdom of heaven. It is a transcendence of categories of thought. This is EXACTLY what the buddhist enlightenment is. This is what the christ story is. The tree in the garden was about categories of thought (the knowledge of good and evil). Christ on the cross is a symbol of the other tree in the garden and eating communion is a symbol of eating the fruit of that tree. And you can see (in genesis) that this other tree is the tree of eternal life.

This is what it means to partake of jesus. It is a symbol of the counterpart to the garden of eden. As ALL christians say.. Jesus is the way to eternal life!

The symbol, when taken like this, is empowering and clearly the true meaning of christianity. It's a meaning that is found in buddhism/hinduism... It is a meaning that is found in the masonic image of the pyramid on the dollar bill. In the pyramid on the dollar, you see that anywhere on the base, there is an opposite side to the pyramid. There are dualities and categories of thought wherever you are EXCEPT at the apex where there is just a point.. this is where the eye of god is (the transcendent divine).

This is the central meaning to all philosophy and religion. It's this realization. This is CLEARLY christ's message and the symbol of his teachings and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant on the basis of what it means to be human (i.e. perceiving the world in categories of thought).

The image of christ is a beautiful and empowering and freeing image... But it is not a literal dude who was the magical virgin born son of some literal white bearded guy who created all the angels and such back 6000 years ago. That's just stupid. All of that imagery points to the mystery.. it is NOT the mystery itself. Saying that being christian requires this literalist belief is illogical and is akin to calling a finger pointing towards the stars a star itself.

I and christ are one. (a slight tweak of john 10:30 and adapted for myself).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

Skepticologist

Do I detect a reference to one of Joseph Campbell's most salient points here?

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Og

Quite certainly You'll note my subtitle above my icon is "Campbellite"

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste