Og

I like one of the last verse in the gospel of thomas.

Jesus says "The kingdom of heaven is already laid out upon the earth. It is just that men do not see it."

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Tomasz

Yes, that says it all, but the gnostic gospel of Thomas is not a part of New Testament

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Nick Treklis

What are your thoughts on this excerpt from the Gospel of Thomas?

Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."

Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that he too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Thomas: 114

marmalade

That is just a common way of thinking from the Axial Age(Karl Jaspers). The prophets/teachers of that time were challenging the authorities and promoting equality. But, even so, these were all men and it was a patriarchal society. There are texts of Buddha saying the same kind of thing.

Everyone, including portrayed incarnations of God, are limited to the society they're 'born' into. Similarly, some of the great Hindu gurus of the past century were homophobic because, despite being 'enlightened', the society they were raised in was strongly homophobic. This doesn't take away from their teachings having genuine insight.

There is no ancient holy text that isn't a combination of insight and prejudice.

Nick Treklis

I think the excerpt I quoted is beyond mere prejudice against women, it appears to be utter and open contempt for them on the part of Simon Peter, going beyond the notion that they should just "stay in the kitchen and have babies". Jesus' comment even more interestingly says he will lead Mary in order to make her a male so she can live a truly spiritual life, and that in order for a female to become enlightened she must first become male. Of course this doesn't mean she must change her physiology from a woman's to a man's, but he is speaking about changing her mentality from a feminine one to a masculine one.

marmalade

Nick,

My response is still the same. I wasn't saying that its just prejudice. What I was saying is that is just the way people spoke back then. Yep, its utter and open contempt of women. Why do you find it surprising that someone from two thousand years ago lacked feminist insight when feminism didn't exist at the time?

Og

What does it mean "to make someone male?"

Also, peter's misunderstanding of jesus' teachings doesn't surprise me. Jesus was cleaning up after him even to the end when he had to fix the guard's ear that peter cut off.

Seems fitting to me that the catholic church uses him as their icon and there's a statue of him with his sword outside of the vatican cathedral (st peter's basillica). Fitting in that they missed jesus' message so solidly.

There's an identical figure to peter in the buddha story named "ananda." Another idiot who didn't get the prophet's teachings and went on to start the church.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Nick Treklis

On the contrary I think it is because Jesus did understand the feminine that he wished to eliminate it and replace it with the masculine. Even if the movement we call feminism didn't exist, women were just as feminine back then as they are now. I'll address why Jesus thought this way in my response to Og below.

When Jesus said he would lead Mary in order for her to become male it had nothing to do with changing her physiology, but everything to do with changing her mentality from a feminine one to a masculine one. He basically wants to eliminate feminine traits like the desire to form emotional bonds, passivity, emotional flux, and sensuality and replace them with masculine traits like single mindedness, independence, stead fast, and courage, traits which are far more conducive to enlightenment than feminine traits.

Og

Sounds like a reasonable analysis in light of the "buddhist derived" perspective on christianity.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are