Og

The concretization of Christianity focused everyone's eyes on the finger and not on what it points at.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Abel

I just wonder why people look at either the finger or the moon instead of the One that made both.

Og

Heh.. you illustrate my point! I could not have asked for a better response

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

Let me clarify. Your concept of God is the finger.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Nick Treklis

I think you're giving christians too much credit. The only thing I ever see them focused on is their egos. Maybe buddhism as it currently stands is more like the christianity you described. They sit around in the lotus position chanting their sutras thinking that is enlightenment, never knowing how badly they mistake the finger for the moon.

Abel

Og,

Do you not think it is pretty arrogant on your behalf to assume you know what my concept of God is? From one statement that I made, you presume to know what I believe and understand about God? I just may not fit into your preconceived notion of what a Christian is.

I see the finger, and I see the moon. I choose not to spend too much time dwelling on either. It is much more satisfying to me to meditate on the God who created the finger to point to Him and created the moon to reflect His glory.

I am not focused on my ego since I do not hold myself in high esteem. Actually, I disappoint myself more than I care to mention. I don't sit in the lotus position either. It cuts the blood flow off and my legs fall asleep then I can't walk until the feeling comes back.

I am not here to fight with anyone. I am not here to judge any. I am not even posting in order to convict any non-Christians. I merely desire to let others know about the pure joy I have in being a child of God.

Og

I am not saying that I know your view of God. I am saying that conceptualizing the divine is the prison for your mind.

Buddhists have this saying: "If you see the buddha walking down the street, kill him."

Quite a bit different from the Christian notion methinks. The point is that the conceptualization of the divine separates you from it. That seeing the buddha on the street is the finger pointing at the divine. Killing it means to go beyond it and discard it. The idea of leaving the boat at the shore when you get to your target versus picking it up and carrying it on your back.


The point of my initial comment was neither the finger nor the moon. It was the relationship that they represent and the function they play. It was a metaphor for our understanding of the divine.



Focusing on your ego does NOT require arrogance. Focusing on your ego solidifies an "I" out of the divine. It makes you a "child of God" versus "God"... That's the difference. Focusing on the finger causes a misunderstanding that casts god "out there" somewhere instead of within and without equally.

I am not advocating buddhist meditation. I am not a buddhist. I just thought it was a neat and universal concept that might speak well to the modern state of most religions in the west.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Abel

You're doing it again, Og. You are assuming that you know that my mind is in prison. You know nothing about my mind. Since you continue to draw false conclusions about my beliefs, and state of mind, allow me to clarify.

Right now I am the happiest I have ever been in my life. I have a peace that is beyond all understanding. I have pure joy all the way deep down inside my very being. I am free to do anything I desire. I am free to think on anything that comes to mind. I am experiencing freedom as never before.

Unlike many people I do have something to compare my current life to. For almost fifteen years I lived as if I was the only one that mattered. My life consisted for one porpose: To please myself. And I tried. I tried to make myself happy with everything that came before me. But I found that the more I tried, the more miserable I was. That, my friend, was prison. Nothing satisfied until I gave myself completely to Christ.

You are may correct in the difference between Buddhists and Christianity. Whereas the Buddhist says "Kill the Budda" Christ says to invite him over, give him a drink of water, and a bite of food. Help him care for his feet. and give him your coat if he is cold. There is joy in helping others. That is where my mind is.

debdodd

There is more than one road to personal happiness/being content/finding inner peace and it doesn't have to be via any organized religion.

For some religion does not give them answers or peace. What your road to personal happiness is may not be the same for a man/woman of science .... that doesn't mean the other person is wrong or right ... it's just what is right for them.

Your catalyst to find happiness was prison, Og's was the logic of science ... I just don't see why religion, believing in God, makes anyone more right or another person wrong ... good people, believers or non believers, are not the problem.

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

Abel

debdodd,

I agree with you more than you would believe. Religion in itself leaves people with no answers or peace. Religion places burdens and laws on people that are too heavy to carry. This applies to all religion, including what most people consider Christianity. Religion gives people false hope. Jesus was more critical of the religious leaders of the time than with anyone else.

Many people call me religious. I don't take offense to this, but I don't personally agree with that assessment. My joy does not come from religion, but from the relationship I have with Jesus.

This is the stumbling block for most people. They can't see Jesus, or touch Him, or hear His audible voice, so they reject Him. That is equilivant to me saying that since I have not met your best friend, nor heard him/her, nor touch him/her, they must not exist. You know that your friend is real. You and your friend would probably be insulted if I claimed his/her non-existence.

I tell others about my relationship with Jesus because I remember how I felt without Him and how I feel now with Him. I would not trade what I have now for anything in this world. It is beyond description. You said there are many roads to happiness. Well, I traveled many of those roads and did not find real happiness until I traveled the Kings Highway.