Baptising

THEWAULRUS · 10-03-2006, 07:50 PM

Do you think it is good? And I am talking of baptising little newborns because I personally think it is not right. I have baptised without my concent, when i was born. I did not get to even choose. Should there be an age limit to when you can baptise the person? So they actually knew what they are doing.

DizzyDee · 10-04-2006, 09:54 AM

Mormons believe children are innocent and in no need of repentance until they reach an age of accountability - or a knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Of course, that age is 8 years of age - which seems young to me.

I also know of other christian denominations who perhaps may bless an infant, but leave baptism for when they are older. A friend of mine, who was raised evangelical christian, decided to be baptised around 16 years old - although she was raised with the expectation she should be baptized her parents let her choose when she was ready to make a commitment to God.

And no, I don't believe that baptizing little babies is right - but for many it is just a family tradition and a way to welcome and bless a new life. In the end, parents have a protected right to teach their children religion.

THEWAULRUS · 10-04-2006, 02:05 PM

That is not how it works where i come from. Where I come from you are baptised if your parents choose to and it's for real. I do not think that is right.

DizzyDee · 10-04-2006, 05:29 PM

Fair, enough - I just wanted to point out that not all christian sects and denominations require baptism at birth. For some religions its about making an informed choice, for others its about saving them from the fires of hell (as if God would send an innocent child there because his parents wouldn't baptize them, although many parents believe that).

Ronin · 10-04-2006, 11:00 PM

THe denomination I grew up in didn't believe in infant baptism, but I don't see how its any worse than indoctrinating some poor defensless kid with religious dogma in the first place. I mean, I supposedly made an "informed consent" to be baptized, but in reality I was more or less brainwashed into it. Whereas a lot of Catholic parents baptize their kids as infants but then don't do much to force them one way or the other afterwards. So I think that the real issue isn't baptism per se, but about the entire issue of parents indoctrinating their kids when they're too young and impressionable to have any sort of perspective. And, tough as it is, there's not much anyone can do about that - parents have the right to teach their kids whatever (legal) religion they want. Once the kids are grown, they are responsible adults and can make their own decisions - but of course their skewed world view is usually so internalized by then as to make it all but impossible for them to break away from it. I was only able to b/c even as a fundamentalist I was at least aware of a different world view: the secular humanist worldview whcih formed the basis of public school education. That's why homeschooling is so popular amoung fundamentalists: it gives you complete control over everything that goes into your children's minds.

But I don't want to sound like I'm accusing all Christian parents of what basicaly amounts to mental abuse; obviously most aren't so controling. And even the ones who are, think that they're doing it for the child's own good.

THEWAULRUS · 10-05-2006, 01:56 PM

Well. Where i come from..you are forced to be baptise and there is nothing you can do...

mtatum4496 · 10-10-2006, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DizzyDee

Mormons believe children are innocent and in no need of repentance until they reach an age of accountability - or a knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Of course, that age is 8 years of age - which seems young to me.

I also know of other christian denominations who perhaps may bless an infant, but leave baptism for when they are older. A friend of mine, who was raised evangelical christian, decided to be baptised around 16 years old - although she was raised with the expectation she should be baptized her parents let her choose when she was ready to make a commitment to God.

And no, I don't believe that baptizing little babies is right - but for many it is just a family tradition and a way to welcome and bless a new life. In the end, parents have a protected right to teach their children religion.

Yep, just about all latter day denominations avoid the act of infant baptism. In the Josephite tradition of Latter Day Saintism, there is a blessing ceremony within a year after the birth; essentally it is a time when the parents present the newborn to the congregation and the congregation enters in to a covenant to provide care and nurture for the child as he or she grows up.

RLDS also would not consider baptizing a child until he or she was at least eight years old. In some cases, the child would need to be older. It all boiled down to whether the parents and the local ministers were in agreement that the child was ready for such a step. I knew folks that waited till they were in their teens before deciding to be baptized into the RLDS faith.

Full membership in the church did not come about with baptism. It was only after the sacrament of confirmation that a person was a bonafide member. RLDS were real big on making a celebration out of just about any sacrament (they did the Catholic Church one better, since RLDS have eight sacraments), so usually the confirmation would take place in a separate service from the baptism.

On other fellowships that do practice the rite of christening - in many of those, full membership does not come about until they receive further religious instruction just prior to their teens. I've always got the impression that there is some feeling that the child is thus "covered" in the case of an accident early in life.

Personally, I tend to think that it is more appropriate for someone to engage in a religious rite because they are old enough to make the choice.

**George** · 10-10-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin

THe denomination I grew up in didn't believe in infant baptism, but I don't see how its any worse than indoctrinating some poor defensless kid with religious dogma in the first place. I mean, I supposedly made an "informed consent" to be baptized, but in reality I was more or less brainwashed into it. Whereas a lot of Catholic parents baptize their kids as infants but then don't do much to force them one way or the other afterwards. So I think that the real issue isn't baptism per se, but about the entire issue of parents indoctrinating their kids when they're too young and impressionable to have any sort of perspective. And, tough as it is, there's not much anyone can do about that - parents have the right to teach their kids whatever (legal) religion they want. Once the kids are grown, they are responsible adults and can make their own decisions - but of course their skewed world view is usually so internalized by then as to make it all but impossible for them to break away from it. I was only able to b/c even as a fundamentalist I was at least aware of a different world view: the secular humanist worldview whcih formed the basis of public school education. That's why homeschooling is so popular amoung fundamentalists: it gives you complete control over everything that goes into your children's minds.

But I don't want to sound like I'm accusing all Christian parents of what basicaly amounts to mental abuse; obviously most aren't so controling. And even the ones who are, think that they're doing it for the child's own good.

Very good perspective/take on the subject. I agree that it's more about the indoctrination process forced upon children, but at the same time who am I to tell a person how to raise their kid.

It's like you said, once they are adults capable of making their own decisions and for the first time experiencing the world without looking at it through the stain glass window their parents allow them to hopefully then they'll be able to make a more informed decision on what they believe. That is, if they live long enough and experience enough. Some young adults are still so controlled by their parents that moving away is not an option for them. SO they stay in teh same town and go to teh same church with their parents allowing that control to continue far into their adulthood.

OneofaKind · 10-14-2006, 07:16 AM

It's interesting the way in which people talk about indoctrination.

If you believe that something is good and right for your children you teach it to them and want it to be the guiding principles for their life.

If you believe in God, you teach your children about God and want them to live in line with the principles. Similarly, if you believe it is wrong to steal or to lie, you teach your children not to do so.

When they grow up, they deciede what to do. To share their parents believes - be it in God, not stealing etc or otherwise.

Faydwyn · 10-16-2006, 12:22 AM

Most cultures have some sort of recognition (ceremony, ritual, etc.) for major changes or phases of life, including birth. Often these ceremonies got (or get) incorporated into religion. We have inherited such a system. These ceremonies play an important social and cultural role and I think that to abandon them altogether wouldn’t be the best idea. But I don’t think they have to be or should automatically be religious and I wish we had more secular options.

As far as indoctrinating children into belief systems…I think that there are some beliefs are quite harmful. However, I wouldn’t want someone to be able to tell me that I can’t teach my children my beliefs; therefore, I won’t tell others what to teach their children. That being said, there’s a big difference between simply teaching your children your beliefs and keeping them completely sheltered. I don’t think it’s right to keep children from information. * They should be allowed (and encouraged) to learn all that they can. Parents should teach their children to be critical thinkers, that way they can come to conclusions on their own.

*Stipulation: information like birthday surprises, etc. are ok to hide in my opinion; and the information should be appropriate for the maturity of the child.