stillcrazy

I guess some questions that come to my mind when it comes to Christians view of God are these.

If he sees us as children and wants a relationship with us, then why all the secrecy?

Why have someone write a book about how he is? Why not show us himself. If he really wants to perform miracles to prove he is almighty, then why not do it big, and bring back cut off limbs.

My son is getting his Master's in a Christian college. He says to understand the bible you have to read and do some in depth study to understand what is being said. Why is that? That don't make any sense to me. Why would he make it so hard to understand what he is saying, if he wanted to be friends with me?

The way I see it, if there is a God and he is sending people to hell. He is just one evil SOB. Because if he really cared he would not have us read some old book, by people that are dead or never really existed, in languages that are no longer in existence. I think if there is a God that wanted to give us some important news, he would find better ways to get his point across. I am not even saying to show him or her self everyday, maybe once or twice every century or something.

I also wonder how many people would go to church if there was no threat of a hell or a promise of a heaven? I bet we would see some real show of a "Love" for God...

Buddha

I think those are all very good questions.

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Trenody

Quite the good questions.

Another question that I have is why is it that in the Bible God is appearing to all sorts of people and now He comes to no one. Or if He does and you describe it your either, one, a blasphemer, or two, crazy?

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Lecter

You ask very good questions. But up until the part where you said "The way I see it, if there is a God" I was understanding where you come from.

What I mean is that before that statement you were talking about god according to Christianity. After that part you kinda just spoke about god in general, based on the sources of Christianity. At least that's the way I saw it, if I'm mistaken please correct me.

I just don't think it's fair to speak about god based on sources you don't even think are from god, know what i mean?

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stillcrazy

I am not sure what you are saying. But if you look at my profile story, you will see that I come from a very fundamentalist background. So thought I know it was deep brainwashing from my intellect, brainwashing can still haunt you seemingly forever. So anyway that is why the questions to the Christian god..

shaun

Sure. It's okay to have questions.

A few things:
1) I think God works in all kinds of ways. I have seen him work in the miraculous - personally, my eyes were healed after a failed eye surgery. I've also personally seen torn acl's healed, chronic stomach diseases healed, and heard of much more through trusted friends.
2) Jesus did quite a few miracles when He was here - and then the apostles that followed Him also performed many miracles. If you look in an in-depth study throughout Christian history, you'll find that the miraculous was still there in differing levels. Jesus in Scripture even while rebuking the Pharisees tells them, "But if I do it [doing what the Father does], even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." - John 10:37-39, brackets mine.
3) Are you just looking for miracles, or what? I'm unsure what you're asking.

I think that you don't have to do a full-out in-depth study of it to understand basic principles of the Gospel. I think, however, that you should take it just like you take anything else you want to learn about - you read about it, look at its founder (Jesus), and study its teachings. Maybe that's what your son meant.

I don't think God makes it hard for us to know His love, but I think that often we set up walls in our hearts to prevent us from being truly known. Look at relationships in human form - most people are, at their core, afraid of sharing the deepest part of themselves and being rejected. The fear of being known and not being accepted is a core human fear, and most people fall on coping mechanisms to alleviate that fear - or at least postpone its arrival.

If you really didn't want to be with God, wouldn't that be horribly evil for Him to force you to be with Him for eternity? I think God honors people's choices here. If you want to be with Him, you can. If you're in it for yourself; well, you get yourself for eternity. That's really the choice here.

Okay, wait a minute here, this is just ignorance. (No offense, everyone is ignorant in some field or another.) The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Both Hebrew and Greek are still around and in use today, and we know quite a bit about both those languages. Aramaic not so much so, but only a small portion of the NT was written in it, and translated to Greek very shortly after (average estimates show around 20-30 years).


Here's the crux - if someone really loves you, they'll pursue you to make it known. God has continually pursued humanity - even sending His only begotten son to die - for us. People, however, have usually not returned the favor. God promises us that if we seek Him with all of our heart, we will find Him.

God doesn't want automatons who are preprogrammed to show love to Him. That's not true love - true love is a choice a person makes. True love is a decision I make to give my whole to someone even if I don't always understand it (or at times even want it!). The failure of understanding this concept is why successful marraige rates have fallen drastically in the past 50 years.

Probably very few. If there's no promise of reward, why would anyone want it? I go to church to experience the love of God with my community. I tangibly experience it there with my friends who know Him, as well as experiencing it from God through prayer and worship. That's a reward - a reward I know I will meet fully in Heaven.

I bet you can find it now, if you look.

stillcrazy

Hey Shaun,


Okay, wait a minute here, this is just ignorance. (No offense, everyone is ignorant in some field or another.) The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Both Hebrew and Greek are still around and in use today

Yes but they are copies of copies of copies. There is also not a clear consensus of who wrote many of the books in the NT, My son has even been shown that what many people thought was Paul's writing are not Paul's writings.

I think that you don't have to do a full-out in-depth study of it to understand basic principles of the Gospel. I think, however, that you should take it just like you take anything else you want to learn about - you read about it, look at its founder (Jesus), and study its teachings. Maybe that's what your son meant.


Remember when they say that Jesus said the 'My yoke is easy and my burdens light" My son told me that it is not as simple as that, but that the people of his time would understand.
Now Shaun, if you have to even break down a seemingly simple statement such as that, there are some real problems, because not everyone for one reason or another going to be able to have the time or intelligence to break down every word.

personally, my eyes were healed after a failed eye surgery. I've also personally seen torn acl's healed, chronic stomach diseases healed, and heard of much more through trusted friends


There is nothing new for some awesome healing to take place in our bodies I do not doubt that, but not everyone will see that it is from God, but I will tell you that if a kind of healing that has never happened before, such as a limb grown back, then you might have a foot to stand on.

Here's the crux - if someone really loves you, they'll pursue you to make it known. God has continually pursued humanity - even sending His only begotten son to die - for us.


I agree if someone really loves someone they would pursue that person. And that is just it, if there is a God and he does love humanity, he would not rely on a book written thousands of years ago, by people that we don't know and quite frankly don't even know if there was a real Jesus that died on a cross, or even a Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John that were supposed to be his own men..

You said this "Look at relationships in human form - most people are, at their core, afraid of sharing the deepest part of themselves and being rejected"

Yup you hit the nail right on the head...There are many people that do not want to spend all their lives believing in something and have it be all lies, that is a type of rejection. There is not enough CLEAR proof that there is a God or Jesus, it is as simple as that, Christians such as you and my son say we are in rebellion because we don't believe, nonsense...I can tell you right now that if God would come down and make it abundantly clear that he is real and he cares, you would have a ton of converts, he wouldn't have robots following him, because then they would know he/she was real.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was raised in a Christian home all my life, I was a youth pastor for a few churches, I was an assistant pastor, my grandfather was a life long pastor, so I saw the behind scenes, there was more envy, backstabbing, jealousy, lying, gossiping holier than thou folks that used their power for their own purposes, than I have ever seen.

Take a look and you will find many people that go to a Christian college drop out and become Atheist because they find out that what they grew up to believe just is not so. It is not all black and white as they thought.

In the Christian bible, God is likened like a father, well let me tell you there are millions of fathers that are a whole lot better fathers than God ever was ,if he sends billions to hell because he did not take time to come down and make it very clear on what his intentions are.

Sometimes Shaun, it has to make sense, But it just does not make sense!!

So contrary to what you may think, folks like me do not believe out of rebellion. There just has to be something that makes rational sense. So I say "A God"? maybe, but I cannot believe in the God the Christians believe in.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it..
Take care.
Jack

shaun

[quote=stillcrazy;21141]Hey Shaun,


Okay, wait a minute here, this is just ignorance. (No offense, everyone is ignorant in some field or another.) The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Both Hebrew and Greek are still around and in use today

Copies of copies of copies? First off, how do you know that? Secondly, you're assuming that a copy is necessarily invalid and changed - imagine what would happen if we put the same assumptions on documents today! We don't - simply because we know and assume that copying is normatively accurate. To say it's not requires proof that the original source document has been changed.

As for the Paul's writings bit - well, there is a consensus, but it does matter who you talk to. Maybe if you got a bit more specific we could discuss more thoroughly.

I think that's a pretty easy statement to understand.

I think just because some people break it down doesn't mean everyone has to.

A torn ACL being healed doesn't do it? Eyes completely being restored (after tests were run a week prior and doctors stating it was impossible) doesn't do it?

Man, you've got a strict standard here. I have seen people in wheelchairs get up and walk. I've got friends who've seen broken bones pop back into place. I don't think this is the issue here - I don't think what you are truly wanting is a physical miracle.

Actually, we know the people quite well. They're one of the most documented people groups in history.

It is widely and commonly assumed in scholarly circles that Jesus was a real person who existed and was crucified. Some may doubt His divinity, but very, very few doubt His existence on earth.

Come on man - you can doubt everything, but I think there's more than enough substantial evidence to invalidate your doubts. Do some searching, rather than just doubting, man.

That's an opinion.

I never stated here that you're in rebellion. I think you're superimposing your son's views on me, which I find quite unfair. If you've got a problem with your son, talk to him. Please don't take that out on me.

I doubt we would, actually, but alas, that's not up for debate.

Yep, the church is made up of people, and people are broken, hurt, and sinful. Won't argue with you there. That's why we have Jesus.

There's an equal (and usually greater) percentage of people who go to secular colleges and do the same. I don't think this view holds.

Then why are you here? To rant? This is a discussion forum, not a bashing forum. If you're here to listen, people will talk with you. If you're here just to get mad, no one is going to take you seriously.

I'm sorry for whatever's happened between you and your son, but man, don't let that get in the way of you finding Jesus.

AB517

They are good questions. I ask myself them even now.

He does use other ways. Like music, movies, good people. I have even seen the message in commercials.

Remember though, the ol’d dude coming down pointing his finger kinda infringes on free will.

I am RCC am most of my family and bible group treats the bible as a good book. A book that can be use to keep us centered and no matter who we talk to around the world we have a common point. Imagine what would happen if we all used different books.

At some point all the “ideas people” have to face to real world. I do think we could change some of our focal points. The year 700 was ok but now we are 2000 years later.

Reading the bible 500 times to understand the bible is like an accountant saying you need calculus to be a CPA. That’s an ego thing.

good post.

Vinterland

Those are pretty good questions, Stillcrazy. One I will add is: Why did God choose to express Himself through a book written in one language, making translations subject to error?

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And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”