kschmidt91

Hello I'm new here and hope this is in the right place.

I've been raised Catholic my entire life (which isn't saying much since I'm only 15), but I've been seriously questioning my religion as of late. In particular is free will.

I get that God has created us with the power of free will in every aspect of our life. But if he is omniscient as the church says then how is it possible that he isn't indirectly affecting our decision? God knows, truly knows (and as humans I don't personally believe we are capable of grasping what "knowing" truly is), what we are going to do before we know. So what if we want to do something else than what God already knows? We can't exactly do so can we because that would mean God isn't truly omniscient. So in giving humans the power of complete free will God has taken omniscince away from himself. Or we don't have free will to the degree we think we do.

Astreja

That's an interesting thought. If a god exists, and chooses to influence other beings' lives by lending a hand or inflicting punishment, omniscience might actually eliminate or inhibit the free will of the god itself. Could it go against the actions that it sees itself doing in the future?

romansh

Hi K91

I have to agree with your statement I don't personally believe we are capable of grasping what "knowing" truly is which is not saying much since I'm only 53 years old and still don't know and still trying to learn.

If I may give some advice .... don't be too much in a hurry to come to an answer. You are still young. You are off to a good start by asking questions, keep the questions coming (preferably easier ones ). Talk to people and read; but above all question.

What worked for me and eventually lead me to a happy state not knowing was asking myself what would the ideal god be like and what would god want for the universe. This is just an example that worked for me, I'm sure you'll find your own path.

all the best

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

Think of God as a filmmaker who is documenting the habits of an animal. This entity is an ethical filmmaker and he won't intervene in order to set up shots he would like. Now, lets attribute omnipotence to God (omniscience is part of the omnipotent definition anyhow) so that he can know exactly what the animal will do at anytime. Simply because he has the foreknowledge of the animals actions does not mean he controls the animals.

A thought to ponder is, does God have to omnipotent in order to be God? I don't think omnipotence is all necessary, God simply has to the most powerful thing in existence and if this assumption is true, then the paradoxes that come with omnipotence are irrelevant.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

kschmidt91

Ok this is where I tend to get confused or confuse other people. I'm not saying God has us all on puppet strings but I do believe he has an inadvertent effect on us. Because God, defined by the Catholic Church at least, is omnipotent He knows what we are going to do, and God can't be wrong if He is omniscient. So then how can we prove God wrong by changing the decision He already knows we are going to make?

Vinterland

You answered your own question when you said: "...and God can't be wrong if He is omniscient..."

You cannot surprise God because you're a mere human.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

kschmidt91

So being that God knows it, how are we, as mere humans, supposed to be able to truly have total free will? God knows it will happen so there for we can't change it, even its something as simple as breathing for 1.34 seconds or 1.35 seconds. Since God knows how long we are going to breathe how can we exert our total free will and change so that we breathe for 1.56 seconds?

It also brings to mind the Heisenburg Uncertainty Pricipal, which says as you know more about the momentum of a given electron the less you know about the position of it and vise versa. This is just a fancy way of saying that when something is observed it is changed. So being that God knows our decision before hand he has, in affect, taken away our total free will, has he not?

__________________
"To educate a person in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society" -Theodore Roosevelt

Vinterland

Free will is independent of God's omnipotence. Again, God isn't making you choose to eat Reese's Puffs cerial for breakfast. You made that choice independant of God, and He knew you would do that even before created you!

I refer to the filmmaker analogy again. This time imagine you're in his shoes. The only change in you is that you now have omnipotence and the ability to know eveything. You're documenting the mating habits of the African hippo. All of a sudden you have the foreknowledge of everything the hippo will do!

What decision will you make? Will you exploit your powers and plan the rest of of the film by making the hippo do what you want so you cna make the perfect film, or will you let it act on its' own will and so be that it may, a terrible film is the result?

Foreknowledge =/= predestination.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

kschmidt91

But in knowing what the hippo does I have taken away part of free will. I know the hippo will go drink at such and such a time. So that means it will drink. I haven't made it choose but I have taken away it's ability to make another choice.

__________________
"To educate a person in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society" -Theodore Roosevelt

Vinterland

(Emphasis my own)
You answered your own question again. You didn't make it choose; you didn't make it do anything!

But you just said that you didn't do anything.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”